NCO, officer pay gap brings complaints

[Admin]

NCO, officer pay gap brings complaints (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/01/army-pay-disparity-between-nco-officer-debate-012211w/)

Noncommissioned officers serve as mentors and confidants to officers of every rank, yet the pay gap between them keeps growing and some soldiers say they want it stopped.

[Un4given]

Discuss.

[Armor_Warrior]

Read this article earlier this week in the Army Times. I'm not buying most of it. Yes, enlisted have more responsiblities post 9-11 but it is still not equal to that of officers. I'm not buying the whole "I have a degree" speech either. Because alot of these Soldiers that tout a degree got it from University of Phoenix or one of these other online course you can knock out in 8 months. I think if you got rid of all of this people claiming to have a degree then there wouldn't be too many people with a legitimate argument. I agree with the Captain that said each rank should have a education incentive pay, but for legitimate degrees that employers outside of the Army recognize only. I also do think a retired CSM with 20+ years in service should be compensated more than a active duty Captain with 3 years.

[rkam98]

Read this article earlier this week in the Army Times. I'm not buying most of it. Yes, enlisted have more responsiblities post 9-11 but it is still not equal to that of officers. I'm not buying the whole "I have a degree" speech either. Because alot of these Soldiers that tout a degree got it from University of Phoenix or one of these other online course you can knock out in 8 months. I think if you got rid of all of this people claiming to have a degree then there wouldn't be too many people with a legitimate argument. I agree with the Captain that said each rank should have a education incentive pay, but for legitimate degrees that employers outside of the Army recognize only. I also do think a retired CSM with 20+ years in service should be compensated more than a active duty Captain with 3 years.



I definatley agree with your questions about the credibility of some of these on-line degrees that many Enlisted have. However, to be fair the fact is that the Army does not provide them with the same oppertunity to obtain advanced education like they do for Officers. I mean if you plan to stay as a carrear AD Officer, it is pretty easy to get a Masters Degree paid for by the Army at a Legitimate institution. I do not know of these types of oppertunities being avalible to Enlisted. If that is adjusted for then the argument about how there is not as much of a education gap would be more of a real argument.

[Un4given]

I definatley agree with your questions about the credibility of some of these on-line degrees that many Enlisted have. However, to be fair the fact is that the Army does not provide them with the same oppertunity to obtain advanced education like they do for Officers. I mean if you plan to stay as a carrear AD Officer, it is pretty easy to get a Masters Degree paid for by the Army at a Legitimate institution. I do not know of these types of oppertunities being avalible to Enlisted. If that is adjusted for then the argument about how there is not as much of a education gap would be more of a real argument.
Do you get a pay raise when you earn your Masters? How about a Doctorates? Nope, just more competitive for the next grade.

As for getting it paid for, there are plenty of opportunities for enlisted to get degrees paid for. I still have 3 years until I'm eligible for the GI bill (it wasn't even a reality until recently) and TA barely grazes on post-graduate degrees.

[Armor_Warrior]

I definatley agree with your questions about the credibility of some of these on-line degrees that many Enlisted have. However, to be fair the fact is that the Army does not provide them with the same oppertunity to obtain advanced education like they do for Officers. I mean if you plan to stay as a carrear AD Officer, it is pretty easy to get a Masters Degree paid for by the Army at a Legitimate institution. I do not know of these types of oppertunities being avalible to Enlisted. If that is adjusted for then the argument about how there is not as much of a education gap would be more of a real argument.

I don't think the Army has an obligation to send them to school. With tuition assistance and all the other things the Army gives enlisted I think it's fair enough. It's like Captain Livingston said, " Most haven't invested four to six years of their life in college to earn higher pay by default so that argument is lost. To revisit the online degree, what good is a degree that not body recognizes. That just a waste of money and resources. I know this is gonna sound mean, but they chose the enlisted route nobody put a gun to there head. If now all of the sudden they don't like there career then go to OCS become an Officer but don't think the Army has some sort of obligation to match pay so you feel finanicially equal.

[Un4given]

With the online degrees... I think a lot is missed out on them. With a brick and mortar facility you actually get people skills, speaking skills, you network, you interact. You get so much more than an e-degree.

With that, the Army doesn't care about your degree all that much anyways. If they did, your degree would correlate with your MOS. But since they don't, what do they want with your degree? What is the most important part of the Army? The people. So I think it's the people skills you earn while at school.

[Sassy05]

I agree with the whole "they chose the enlisted route over college" argument. I was not on any sort of scholarship, nor do my parents have a lot of money. We were lower middle class when I went to college. My parents are a little better off than they were then because they made wise decision with the inheritance my mom got from my grandma. I had a grant that helped (mind you, my tuition was about $25,000 a year), I joined the National Guard, and my parents and I took out loans. There are inexpensive state schools that cost far less than the route I chose, so it's very doable. I know people, and there are probably some on here, who held 2-3 jobs in college to get by. An E7 does have a lot of responsibility, but how many of them are 22 years old? Plus, let's compare what enlisted make to what their peers make in the civilian world. I made more than my dad makes now when I was a 2LT. My parents are hard-working, driven people, but they weren't pushed to go to college. They do well for high school graduates, but they are definitely bound by the simple fact that they don't have college degrees. Just going off base pay, a PV1 makes a little over $9 an hour. A PFC makes about $10.80. A SPC with 2 years makes about $12.50. That's just basic pay. That doesn't include bonuses, the health care, etc. Yes, a PV2 with a wife and two kids qualifies for food stamps. I still say that guy/gal would make less outside of the Army. You show me hourly civilian jobs that just boost your pay for you every few months if you just do your job. If you're a super star, you can get promoted early with waivers. These days, just be that guy who can pass the APFT, height/weight, shows up to work on time, and doesn't get any article 15s, and you are a super star in most units. The health care isn't stellar, but it's "free." On base housing and the barracks aren't stellar, but show me a job you can get straight out of high school that gives you a place to live.

[Associate289]

I can't wait for Wes to come on here and go all "FUCK YOU SIRS/MAAMS AND YOUR HIGHFALUTIN DEGREES. I FUCKING KILL FUCKING PEOPLE WHILE YOU DRINK COFFEE AND FUCK UP MY JOES PAPERWORK. WHAT YOU WANT TO FIGHT ME? COME DOWN HERE AND ILL SHOW YOU MY 24 FIREARMS AND THEN YOU CAN TRY AND CONVINCE ME THAT YOU DESERVE HIGHER PAY."

Seriously though, I do agree that the pay gap should be narrowed a bit. I'm not saying cut my pay, because you know- fuck that, but the E side of the house could really use a bump. We COULD use the argument of "what would they make in the civilian sector", but in my opinion that doesn't really add up. Yes, E2 Snuffy would probably be making about $8 an hour at the local JoeBob the Ragman's Oil and Lube. But the Oil and Lube doesn't have a 9 week introductory training course followed immediately by a specialized training course that lasts however the fuck long. Oh and you're not gonna be torn away from your family for 12+ months and potentially take a bullet between the eyes for JoeBob. Yes, the whole health care, lodging, benefits stuff needs to be factored in but still. I'm not saying Snuffy needs to be making 70k, but a little bump wouldn't hurt.

I do understand the frustration over NCO vs officer pay. The whole "you made your choice" argument just makes us sound like a bunch of snobbish dickheads. "Sorry there sergeant, but if you had applied yourself to an institution of higher learning you might be able to earn what I earn." Come on. What's the argument; responsibility? You think a BN/BDE/DIV CSM has a couple of responsibilities? What about a PSG/1SG? I agree that the pay gap needs to be shortened a bit.

As far as the college degree argument, how is an active duty service member supposed to attend school full time? So they're forced into these University of Phoenix Online type pieces of shit and they get their "Associates/Bachelors" and ummmmm.... yeah. No one gives a fuck about your online degree. I'm sure you learned something from it, but the majority of these programs don't come close to providing the learning environment that the typical "brick and mortar" schools do. It's a Catch 22 and I don't see an easy solution.

[Girex]

I don’t disagree with e-7s with 20 years at least making equal than a 1st LT with 3... (and its a difference of like 150 bucks)

I believe that only PSGs and 1SGs and CSMs should get some sort of "bonus" to bridge the gap. because E-7s out the recruiting or E-8s sitting on a staff somewhere defiantly don’t have to same responsibility of a CDR or a PL.

and even though it may sound snobby, i served enlisted time and CHOSE to finish my degree and commission. you want the pay difference, make the choice. Its not an easy road that’s handed to you like some NCOs would like to believe. Its not extremely difficult but it wasn’t handed to me.

*also an e-7 at 20 years very likely would be at the end of their career and why would at 20 years you only be an e-7 something would have gone wrong somewhere.

[TKOriginal]

Back to the degree argument, an online degree from an accredited institution is just fine by me. Whether you’re talking about doing an online program at Troy, U of Pheonix, Nebraska, Penn State, heck, even our CDR at Rucker has his masters from Webster U. The problem is, many enlisted (and some officers) got degrees from non accredited institutions that sit right out side our gate, and the Army recognizes them as legit. At Campbell, I remember Soldiers spending 100 bucks and getting military comp credit for basic training, WLC, and special schools for promotion point reasons. Knock out a few correspondence courses and they had their associates. Spend a semester going to Austin Peay and they had their BA. Not from Austin Peay mind you, but from the little office outside gate three. Maybe what needs to happen is the Army needs to stop recognizing these degrees. Shit, when I did OCS I had a classmate who did 19 years in the Army was a 1SG, and still bit the bullet to be a LT. I had plenty of SFC all the way to SPC in my class. That was before you had to have a degree to get in, but still it seems there are a lot of people with degrees bitching maybe they need to bite the bullet. Want the pay, do the work or take the easy way out and go to WOCS, they will take anyone.

[rkam98]

Back to the degree argument, an online degree from an accredited institution is just fine by me. Whether you’re talking about doing an online program at Troy, U of Pheonix, Nebraska, Penn State, heck, even our CDR at Rucker has his masters from Webster U. The problem is, many enlisted (and some officers) got degrees from non accredited institutions that sit right out side our gate, and the Army recognizes them as legit. At Campbell, I remember Soldiers spending 100 bucks and getting military comp credit for basic training, WLC, and special schools for promotion point reasons. Knock out a few correspondence courses and they had their associates. Spend a semester going to Austin Peay and they had their BA. Not from Austin Peay mind you, but from the little office outside gate three. Maybe what needs to happen is the Army needs to stop recognizing these degrees. Shit, when I did OCS I had a classmate who did 19 years in the Army was a 1SG, and still bit the bullet to be a LT. I had plenty of SFC all the way to SPC in my class. That was before you had to have a degree to get in, but still it seems there are a lot of people with degrees bitching maybe they need to bite the bullet. Want the pay, do the work or take the easy way out and go to WOCS, they will take anyone.




Well forsome that is not that easy. One class of people that comes to mind are non-U.S. Citizens, they cannot just become Officers, despite the fact that they may have a BA (or even a MA or higher in some cases).

[Un4given]

I agree with Ass, to an extent. Enlisted pay is weak. Very. It should be increased... But to increase it while looking at Officers' pay is apples and oranges. Two different jobs.

The decision argument is very valid... Did you decide to enlist, go thru basic, AIT, and become a Soldier? Or did you decide to hold off and wait, go to college and commission? Either choice is great, but we all live with what we decide upon. The pay charts are well established. But with that said we can change what we want as well and I've encouraged all of my Soldiers to improve upon themselves. One of them is out here at Rucker going through flight school. Good on 'em.

[Wes]

Well... sorry to disappoint Associate... but here is my response:

I've known quite a few officers in the 11yrs I've been around. I personally know and have worked with officers from O-1 through O-10. There are plenty of them I wouldn't trust to shine my old jungle boots and others that I'd follow into Hell. Same thing goes for NCOs. Here is the problem that I see. CPT's that are making more money than E-6s and E-7's that are career Army, and you have the O-3's just riding out their automatic promotions and then getting out as soon as possible. So here you have Enlisted NCOs that have dedicated their lives to the Army making less money than those shitbag Officers skating through their time. I think that is fucked up. I think the difference should really start to take effect at O-3 and then so-on. And I've seen plenty of ROTC kiddies fucking off and drinking and barely skating by at those "much needed" brick and mortar schools vs. those Enlisted soldiers busting their ass to take classes and study for CLEP tests in between combat patrols and IDF.

Also, not everyone wants to become an Officer for the pay. The main reason I decided against becoming an Officer was OIF I. I saw what the Officers did vs. what I got to do. They weren't kicking down doors and being point man on raids. Two different worlds. And I don't think you should be paid that much more for sitting in an office than the guys on the pointy end of the spear doing the deed. Not saying their aren't Officers that HAVE done the deed, but that is the minority, not the majority.

[kleinmi3]

I've had this discussion almost daily with folks around the office and my stance on it is this...Pay shall remain the same as enlisted Soldiers receive enlistment bonuses, re-up bonuses, and a higher BAS than their officer counterparts. I do beleve that Senior Enlisted Members serving in senior leadership roles (1SGs, and CSMs) should receive a "assignment incentive pay", as should Company, Battalion, and Brigade Commanders. The scope of responsibility is higher. I agree with the note on Enlisted Soldiers and the recent rise in Degrees. I think 5% of my platoon in Iraq had a degree(about 6 Soldiers) Of the 6, four of them got it from Phoenix Online, 1 got his from South Eastern Southen Technical Poly Institute Of America, and the last one got his from another no-name university. It just doesn't compare; sorry. Also, the cashier at McDonalds who has been ringing in orders for 10 years is probably not making as much money as the assistant manager. Correct?

[Cerebroden]

i'd like to bring up the point that, other than the select few....college is a hell of an investment. When I started shopping around for colleges I had made the decision that I was going to be up to around 75k in debt by the time I graduated, but was confident I'd make it up in the long run. That's a pretty big burden to take up. I agree with Un4, brick and mortar schools provide you with a hell of a lot more than just the piece of paper.

[Sassy05]

Well forsome that is not that easy. One class of people that comes to mind are non-U.S. Citizens, they cannot just become Officers, despite the fact that they may have a BA (or even a MA or higher in some cases).

Yes, I'm sure they are by far the majority of Soldiers with degrees... I'm all for making it easier to become a citizen (because it is a pretty ridiculous process), but I still have zero sympathy for non-citizens. As mentioned, the process should be made easier, especially for those who have joined our military, but I'm not going to feel bad for someone who can't become an officer because they aren't a citizen. That also begs the question, where did they get their degree? That's great that someone has their degree from Puerto Rico but can't speak English.

[TheTokenGook]

I know the enlisted vs civilian pay scale has been brought up, but what about officer vs civilian? It seems to me, that for the most part, NCOs are getting a lot less money in the civilian world even after 20+ years experience than officers getting out before retirement. It would seem the civilian world has the same attitude on degrees/experience.


i'd like to bring up the point that, other than the select few....college is a hell of an investment. When I started shopping around for colleges I had made the decision that I was going to be up to around 75k in debt by the time I graduated, but was confident I'd make it up in the long run. That's a pretty big burden to take up.

Yeah, no kidding. Even though college loans have a relatively low interest rate, that's a hefty bit of dough to pay back over time.

[Armor_Warrior]

I would also like to make the point that many enlisted Soldiers these days are fast tracking way faster then they would have before 9/11. NCO's are really quick to talk about how Officers make CPT real quick but what about the E-7s and E-8s with 8-10 years of Service. And still want to complain they should be make what Officers make. The way I see it you are already making more money than a enlisted person with a traditional career progression ( when E-7/E-8 was a rank you attain towards the end of a 20 year career) before pre 9-11 so be greatful for that.

[Wes]

I would also like to make the point that many enlisted Soldiers these days are fast tracking way faster then they would have before 9/11. NCO's are really quick to talk about how Officers make CPT real quick but what about the E-7s and E-8s with 8-10 years of Service. And still want to complain they should be make what Officers make. The way I see it you are already making more money than a enlisted person with a traditional career progression ( when E-7/E-8 was a rank you attain towards the end of a 20 year career) before pre 9-11 so be greatful for that.

Uh... what? If you don't plan on making your E-7 before your 20yr mark... wow. I'm looking at E-7 right at my 11yr mark and I went E-1 through E-6 with no waivers and was even demoted once. Pre-9/11 there were still plenty of E-7s with right around 10yrs in, some with less. E-8 was normally around the 10-15yr mark. Now, I'll agree that the pace has picked up these past 10yrs, but it is MAINLY focused on E-6 and below promotions, not Senior Enlisted. Still having quite a few guys get out at the end of their first contract, especially now that the economy is picking back up a bit. The fact that they don't allow letters of recommendation in the promotion packets these days kinda upsets me. But that is getting off topic.

Armor_Warrior: Were you in pre-9/11? I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure you weren't.

[Armor_Warrior]

Your right I wasn't in before 9-11. E-7 at 11 years sounds about right considering the pace lately. But do you mean to tell me that it was common place to see E-7 in 7 years E-8 in 9 years during the late 90's up to 9/11, I'm pretty sure they were few and far in between. My Dad is retired enlisted and he tells me all the time he can't believe how young these Soldiers are that he sees walking around with E-8 these days. Because I beg to differ. There are many folks that retired in the late 90's that I tell that to and they are beyond amazed. I said E-7 towards the end of your career not at the very end.

[Un4given]

Your right I wasn't in before 9-11. E-7 at 11 years sounds about right considering the pace lately. But do you mean to tell me that it was common place to see E-7 in 7 years E-8 in 9 years during the late 90's up to 9/11, I'm pretty sure they were few and far in between. My Dad is retired enlisted and he tells me all the time he can't believe how young these Soldiers are that he sees walking around with E-8 these days. Because I beg to differ. There are many folks that retired in the late 90's that I tell that to and they are beyond amazed. I said E-7 towards the end of your career not at the very end.
Agreed, my pops is a retired E-8 with 23.5 years and even he is amazed at how fast the enlisted pick up grade. He never cares much about how fast officers pick it up, but he always tells me about how proud he is of me for going the officer route so young.

[Wes]

Your right I wasn't in before 9-11. E-7 at 11 years sounds about right considering the pace lately. But do you mean to tell me that it was common place to see E-7 in 7 years E-8 in 9 years during the late 90's up to 9/11, I'm pretty sure they were few and far in between. My Dad is retired enlisted and he tells me all the time he can't believe how young these Soldiers are that he sees walking around with E-8 these days. Because I beg to differ. There are many folks that retired in the late 90's that I tell that to and they are beyond amazed. I said E-7 towards the end of your career not at the very end.

What did I say? Re-read my previous post. Nothing you just said conflicts with what I already stated. A LOT of guys get out around E-5 to E-6 mark. Now, in SOF/SF there are some really young Senior Enlisted. But I don't think I've met an E-7 that was younger than 26 in regular units. You might find some high speed dudes around that made it that fast, but not a large amount. At least in my personal experience.

[Armor_Warrior]

What did I say? Re-read my previous post. Nothing you just said conflicts with what I already stated. A LOT of guys get out around E-5 to E-6 mark. Now, in SOF/SF there are some really young Senior Enlisted. But I don't think I've met an E-7 that was younger than 26 in regular units. You might find some high speed dudes around that made it that fast, but not a large amount. At least in my personal experience.

My fault I was reading your post on my Iphone, I must have misread it. When I was at Ft. Hood, and I saw multiple E-7's at 26-27 years old one was my PSG. Maybe it was due to the large amounts of deployments at Hood.

[Cerebroden]

regardless, I've got a SSG in my office that for two days has done nothing but bitch and moan about how he's gonna go warrant cuz its garbage what a E-7 vs. and O-2 makes....little does he know that he's gonna get a fuckin 3-3 if he doesn't shape up.

[Armor_Warrior]

Speaking of pay, is anyone else tracking that promotion to CPT for 08 & 09 year groups will be 39 months now with a targeted goal of 42 months by 2012?

[Girex]

Speaking of pay, is anyone else tracking that promotion to CPT for 08 & 09 year groups will be 39 months now with a targeted goal of 42 months by 2012?

yup, and the Army's "major" scare should have been shorter lived. there still short Majors for the new spots in BCTs but that role can be filled by a SR CPT. I definatly dont agree with the speedy rate of promotions that have been in place. 09 grads should be waiting a full four years.

[Un4given]

The rate of promotions, IMO, should be done away with altogether. There should be a reform with promotions based on merit. LTs shouldn't be able to know when they're being promoted, just do their best and if they're tapped, they're tapped.

[kleinmi3]

regardless, I've got a SSG in my office that for two days has done nothing but bitch and moan about how he's gonna go warrant cuz its garbage what a E-7 vs. and O-2 makes....little does he know that he's gonna get a fuckin 3-3 if he doesn't shape up.


Haha. Are we allowed to 3-3 NCOs anymore? The only time I've ever done so was when I had an E6 physically sexually assault an E3, and he had screwed up about 50 times before that. I remember when I put an incompetent E6 in for a 3-3 and the CSM told me "Sir, I reserve 3-3's for rapists, domestic violence, murder, and those sorts of things. Not because the NCO isn't performing". My jaw dropped. I kept the 3-3 despite what the CSM suggested because I had the backing of my Field Grade(non-BN CDR) and the NCOER "got lost". A few months later, the change of rater turned into an annual. I believe the NCO got a 1-1 with all excellence bullets except for Physical Training. C'est la vie and good luck Cerebroden

[Sassy05]

Haha. Are we allowed to 3-3 NCOs anymore? The only time I've ever done so was when I had an E6 physically sexually assault an E3, and he had screwed up about 50 times before that. I remember when I put an incompetent E6 in for a 3-3 and the CSM told me "Sir, I reserve 3-3's for rapists, domestic violence, murder, and those sorts of things. Not because the NCO isn't performing". My jaw dropped. I kept the 3-3 despite what the CSM suggested because I had the backing of my Field Grade(non-BN CDR) and the NCOER "got lost". A few months later, the change of rater turned into an annual. I believe the NCO got a 1-1 with all excellence bullets except for Physical Training. C'est la vie and good luck Cerebroden

You're in the wrong Army! People get 4s and 5s over here. People get 3-3s for just brutally sucking at their jobs without even doing anything legitimately F'd up. Regardless, with the branch being so small, they just get to go screw off outside of the Group at another post and still get promoted. Speaking of rapists and murderers, our Group commander tried to justify our unit "being pretty good" by stating we don't have rapists and murderers in our ranks. Really???? "Hey guys, we're doing pretty good. I mean, nobody's committed any capital offenses lately..."

[Girex]

Haha. Are we allowed to 3-3 NCOs anymore? The only time I've ever done so was when I had an E6 physically sexually assault an E3, and he had screwed up about 50 times before that. I remember when I put an incompetent E6 in for a 3-3 and the CSM told me "Sir, I reserve 3-3's for rapists, domestic violence, murder, and those sorts of things. Not because the NCO isn't performing". My jaw dropped. I kept the 3-3 despite what the CSM suggested because I had the backing of my Field Grade(non-BN CDR) and the NCOER "got lost". A few months later, the change of rater turned into an annual. I believe the NCO got a 1-1 with all excellence bullets except for Physical Training. C'est la vie and good luck Cerebroden

that CSM needed or needs to be fired... i hope he still isnt one... 3-3 is still a retain by the reg... they were handing 2-2's out in my unit like it was candy when i left..