keepin it real with marine bdus

[CDThardass]

Well, im off for the next 26 hours on a FTX. Just wanted to drop this bomb before i left: what is your view on the new marine digital BDUs.

if this forum has already happened, blow me, i dont care, just looking for some new opinions.

I think they are gay, look a lot like the german bdus without the stupid digital spots.

[Sammy Sandbag]

I personally think it was a bad decision to come off of a standard pattern that was shared by all four services. Now we have the Air Force trying out blue BDUs, furthering the problem. If our separate branches are to truly perform well in joint operations, we need to stop coming up with new and wacky ways to differentiate ourselves. It might seem like a silly excuse, but one of the best ways to avoid fratricide is to ensure we're all wearing the same uniform. I've got no problem with the services wanting to have different covers, patches, patch placement, styles of rolling sleeves, etc. But there really is no point to having completely separate uniforms. Not too mention that it is completely inefficient to have 3 different utility uniforms being produced at the same time. It's costing the tax payer (me) more and more for no sizable benefit.

p.s. No one cares about your un-Godly 26 hours in the field.

[LSUSAF04]

I don't have any problems with the new BDU's for the marines...they really work and if it's gonna help hide our boys by all means go for it! Each services uniforms are different in every other aspect other then the utility uniform, so why not differentiate that as well for the specific needs of the particular force. Now I agree the AF blue is kinda gay, but the top brass for whatever reasons think that'll benefit that service best. About the whole tax payer thing, it isn't really costing them anything. I don't know about you, but I know besides a $300 one time uniform allowance, which barely just covers our mess dress, I have to pay for everything else.

[moose]

what is your view on the new marine digital BDUs.

the design works well from a distance, but the name tapes are all fucked-up. they have the pattern on them as well, and it is not possible to read the names.

[Ezmartini]

The BDUs are cool in their own way, but when I picture a US Armed Serviceman I automatically think of the woodland camo. It's worked on our STX lanes (which I have tomorrow), and I don't know if the TINY bit that works better on the new BDUs is worth the price of fratricide. After all, friendly fire is where a majority of casualties occur during major wartime operations.

[jehgunnz]

Regarding this issue, I just think about Robert McNamara asking why the hell each branch has their own dress shoe and why can't everyone go black?

It does waste money. But if they really want to make the military a channel for stimulating the economy... fine, bastards.

now what is this
http://www.defenselink.mil/daimages/photos/feb2004/index/ii022604j.jpg

[Zirkowitz]

now what is this

only the coolest picture ever.

[Zirkowitz]

i think we just sentenced this thread to the FOD bucket

[Gambit]

I don't know about you, but I know besides a $300 one time uniform allowance, which barely just covers our mess dress, I have to pay for everything else.

Don't forget about enlisted soldiers, they get a certain amount issued...

[AirborneAli]

NO FTX, but I do have 24 hours of staff duty on my first day off in three months.

I saw a lot of the Marine BDUs downrange and I liked them. Threaded within the pixels is the little USMC emblem. It's like playing Where's Waldo. But if you're a dude, I don't recommend staring at another dude looking for it. It's just not worth it.

[MoJo]

I personally like the new marine BDUs, especially with the desert boots which don't have to be polished.

Cornbread: Don't they know over there that running with a rucksack on is hell for your knees and is even an Article 15 on some military bases?

[Sammy Sandbag]

Please try to keep discussion somewhat on topic. If you wish discuss ruck runs and other cadet related topics, start a new one in the Cadet Land forum.

Gambit beat me to the punch, but I was going to say the same thing to LSUSAF. Do you even realize how many millions and millions of dollars are spent on uniforms alone. You as an officer only occupy a small percentage that actually purchases there own uniforms out of pocket. For every small change to the uniform, there must be huge changes to the logistical supply train all the way back to the fabric manufacturer. The department of defense went from having one single uniform produced for all services to three separate uniforms (counting the AF's yet to be deployed blue BDUs.) Factor in the dangers of fratricide and there really is little argument for different uniforms. Saying they "look cool" isn't really sound reasoning when you're considering a decision that may cost an already stretched budget millions more, and also raise the risk of friendly fire.

This isn't to say that the woodland pattern as it stands won't or doesn't need improvements, but why not upgrade accross the board rather than service to service.

[cornbread]

I've only seen the AF blue bdu's once and that was in a picture, but i was wondering why they are switching to blue? is it supposed to blend in better in an urban setting? or is it just to stand out? something tell me the PJ's and the720th STG wont be going deep in enemy lines in blue BDU's...

[Sammy Sandbag]

Hey cornbread, if you figure out that, maybe you can tell me why I have a beret on my head. The point is that there is no point. Some general officer decided his resume was looking a little sparse and started writing memos. And from what I understand, AF spec ops will still keep the woodland camo.

[LSUSAF04]

You're right, you're right I'm an ignorant SOB with regards to the whole uniform allowance taxpayer costs, etc.

With regards to the fratricide comments, an understandable enough and seemingly valid point. However, with the U.S. seeminly more and more not just involved in joint services missions, but in joint country missions with its allies, its members are going to have to become aware of the different uniform styles no matter what. So, I still maintain that the USMC had the right to switch to it's new BDU's because it fits their needs best.

Now what I don't like is that they copyrighted the pattern so only they could use the digitype format. If all services could have transferred to the digitype stuff then that would have been nice. At least that's the way I understood it, feel free to correct me, hell I know you're gonna correct me :D

[Sammy Sandbag]

However, with the U.S. seeminly more and more not just involved in joint services missions, but in joint country missions with its allies, its members are going to have to become aware of the different uniform styles no matter what.

Your talking about an uncontrollable variable, we're talking about the US Marine Corps (and also AF.) The USMC mission isn't so different from the Army's that it warrants a completely different uniform. As stated earlier by me, if one service is going to upgrade, why not all. The branches have been experiencing a problem of working as a cohesive team during joint operations, different uniforms just make one less commonality for us to share.

[cornbread]

the marine BDU's have integrated elbow and knee pads right? id have to say that is a huge improvement from the pads we have to slide on and use now over our BDU's. it would seem like simple things like that should be shared among the armed services to increase combat effectiveness, you dont want someone having to move his elbow pad out of the way during a firefight cause it moved down his arm when he went for cover. hell maybe they need to update the Goldwater-Nichols Act to make sure that there is more unity in the different branches of the military so we dont go down a path like what happened in Desert I. it seems to me that while each branch has an individual mission, most missions now are joint. Trying to go out of the way to create an unnessasary difference for the sake of pride or individuality seems detrimental. if one branch makes improvements on a uniform, it should be extended to all. marines and soldiers fight with weapons and camoflauge like saliors and pilots use boats and missiles. why should something designed to save lives and improve a marines quality of life while humping the ground not be shared? thats like saying the navy has a badass new air to surface missile that can accurately hit a target from a 1000 miles away but refuses to let the airforce in on it. joint operations and cooperation are the future of the military. i know the marines have a celebrated history of being different from the rest of the forces, but this is the kind of thing that only leads to problems in a combined arms future. the more complex we make the lives of our soldiers, the more problems and accidents we will have from taxing people too much.
i dunno, just my two cents. i know from reading the thread most people agree, so i will get off my soap box now.

[Sammy Sandbag]

the marine BDU's have integrated elbow and knee pads right

Actually they just have pockets for pad inserts, which could be bad or good. Considering that the BDU, or combat utility uniform as it's known in the Marines, is always worn loosly, the pads will probably shift around a bit. Of course the slide over style slide down easily as well and are pretty uncomfortable.

[Holt]

I like that feature with the pockets for pads, anyone know if they;re on the digitals (non-marine)?

[Gambit]

i was wondering why they are switching to blue? is it supposed to blend in better in an urban setting? or is it just to stand out?

http://www.af.mil/uniform/

Check the FAQs page, both for comedy value and the sake of the information... some highlights:


The only uniforms that will be issued are those at basic training. All other personnel will be expected to pay for their own uniform. If the uniform is approved, there will be a phase-in time before individuals will be expected to purchase them.


Preliminary test with infrared goggles suggest it camouflages even better than the current BDU pattern.


Rank will be worn the same way it is currently worn on BDUs. If the test is a success, we would phase in a new colored rank to match the pattern in the new utility uniform.


Looks like the AF is kinda screwing over their personnel... not only are they changing the BDUs, they're adding a new undershirt (a "three-button Henley"). Every current servicemember will have to pay for the new BDUs, new rank patches, new henleys, and embroidering of their name on the henley (if they want to be able to take off the BDU top). Yay, morale! :roll:

[Associate289]

"I ask that you take an objective look at the new uniform. It will be a distinctive Air Force uniform designed to fit well, look sharp and require much less maintenance than the current uniform." — Gen. John P. Jumper


Oh, well... as long as its designed to "look sharp", then im sold... i hope the army picks this up before i get commissioned, i wanna look sharp when im hitting on 17 year olds during recruitment tours at my old high...

maybe their doing this to stimulate the ecnomy?

[Sammy Sandbag]

Preliminary test with infrared goggles suggest it camouflages even better than the current BDU pattern.

And we've yet to face an enemy with infrared technology. Not to mention AF personnel working flightline are in more danger from getting sucked into an engine than a towel head with an IR scope.


Every current servicemember will have to pay for the new BDUs, new rank patches, new henleys, and embroidering of their name on the henley

Well that's why enlisted get a uniform allowance, but still sucks. And WTF is with that henley?? I buy my t shirts and throw em a way once they're dirty (not really, but just making a point). I'm guessing the henley will be quite a bit more expensive, don't think you'll see in the airmen with a drawer full of fifty undershirts anymore.

[Ezmartini]

Another thing with the Marine BDUs is that they CHAFE. I've heard from a lot of people that, because of the ability to block IR, the material chafes a lot of Marines currently in Iraq. But that could be partially due to the heat/sweat.

[airjun]

"With regards to the fratricide comments, an understandable enough and seemingly valid point. However, with the U.S. seeminly more and more not just involved in joint services missions, but in joint country missions with its allies, its members are going to have to become aware of the different uniform styles no matter what."

So now some conscript from poland or some west African country will have to figure out 3 -4 different uniforn patterns to tell which ones are american? thats the smartest thing ive heard all day

[Sammy Sandbag]

So now some conscript from poland or some west African country will have to figure out 3 -4 different uniforn patterns to tell which ones are american? thats the smartest thing ive heard all day

No, now they can just look for the blazin flag on our right sleeves.

[ZaQ]

I finally read this whole thing. And I think that all of the different branches will never work together in harmony. Mainly because everyone thinks the branch they join is the best. Personally everyone in my AFJROTC squadron that want to join the Air Force(most that want to join can't) can go to hell. The Army is where I want to be. I doubt you will every see the branches work together completely unless they are all combined into a large fighting force. Then everyone will be in the same branch. But then everyone will think that their MOS is the best one so that idea too is fucked.

Now for the digi camo. I personally haven't seen it used, I mean I have seen it but not in a situation that it is meant for. For a lot of our Army DEP meetings we go hiking. When we go we practice war tactics...ambushes and such. The Great Smokey Mountains National Park is the area where most of these hiking trips take place. And out here the woodland camo works fine for longer distances but not so great for closer distances such as 20 feet. The background is the same color but the shapes are closer to the digi camo rather than the woodland camo. Ss I said I haven't seen the digi camo in action. But if it works better than the woodland camo in more environments then it should be used by all branched. I thought the point of camo was to hide out troops from the enemy to allow them to defeat the enemy without being shot. The problem with one kind of camo system is that it may work great in one area but very shitty in another.


Okay, I've done enough bitching for one day.

[Gambit]

ZaQ, I don't think I've ever heard you talk this much. You OK? Avatar troubles again, too ;)

Good points, though... I'll say that you'll never see the branches combine simply because of good old pride, though. I suppose you could make arguments for and against, but I don't think there's much of a reason to consider it given the hurdles you would face in the combination process.

That pipe dream aside, though, I think you're right about the service pride thing... different strokes for different folks, i s'pose...

[ZaQ]

Yeah, my fragism(the guys that hosted my website) account was deleted due to certain things. I'm currently putting all my stuff on a new server. I'll be back in bidness soon.

In a way I'd like to see the branches combine only because there is a possiblity that a large single fighting orce might better protect the USA. Thought I might be wrong about that capablity. But I don't wand the branches combined because the Army would lose it's tradidtion and customs and all that good stuff. In the End though it's all about protecting the country so they can combine the branches so long as they still call it the Army.

[CombatCady]

I thought that they were giving the Marines the digital BDUs in order to test them to see if they were more effective than the current woodland BDUs. But now it seems like it's just become a thing for the Marines and nobody else. I've never seen a head-to-head comparison of the two uniforms done, and I'm sure that they both have their strong and weak points, but I believe that whichever one works best for the job should be fielded to both the Army and Marines, as well as the Navy and Air Force SF. Though yes, each branch has its own pride, and that can be a good thing ("Hey, let's be the best that we can be to show those Marines/Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen that we're better!" therefor making everyone try their hardest), there's no point in wasting the money and giving us something pointless to fight over. Hell, if the woodland works better in one environment and the digital in another, field both uniforms to both branches and use them METT-T. Say digital works out better for jungle than woodland, but woodland is better in the forest than the digitals. If a unit expects to be in the forest, give 'em woodland BDUs; if they expect jungle terrain, give 'em digital BDUs. Screw what branch of service they are. The uniform should be used in regards to unit circumstances, not unit designation.
My $.02

[usaf2ltdb]

In a way I'd like to see the branches combine only because there is a possiblity that a large single fighting orce might better protect the USA.

China does that. It's all Army. Leads to whoppers like "The People's Liberation Army Navy."

Which brings up the point that there's really no way to combine the services..at some point the divergence of capability requires such specialization that you wind up with de facto services anyhow. An argument could be made (and has been in the past) for absorbing the Marines into the Army and Naval Aviation into the AF, but it wouldn't make us more effective. Combining things like logistics, police/security, medical, and communications could make some sense, but then would they be in some separate greyish agency, or what?

As to the Marine uniform- it was designed and COPYRIGHTED by the USMC. That's why it has the little EGA's all over it- to keep anyone but Marines from wearing it. It's been tested out as more effective camo in something like 90% of the world. Is also more IR absorbent (and since you don't iron/starch them, they stay that way) and breatheable than BDU's. It's just simply a better uniform, but you guys are never intended to wear it.

I think maybe the new AF uniform was designed to be so tactically incorrect and odd-looking that nobody would WANT to wear it.

I do agree with all this differentiation on one principle- no service should be stuck with an obsolete uniform if they have the wherewithal to put their troops in something better- even if other services want to lag behind. Army gets M-4's (and soon M-8's), Marines get snazzy new duds. All about priorities.

[usaf2ltdb]

USAF wrote:
Preliminary test with infrared goggles suggest it camouflages even better than the current BDU pattern.
And we've yet to face an enemy with infrared technology. Not to mention AF personnel working flightline are in more danger from getting sucked into an engine than a towel head with an IR scope.

The NVA used early starlight tech (captured from us and borrowed from the Sovs) during the Vietnam War to attack AF installations and flying aircraft. Egypt was using thermal imaging on its tanks as early as the Yom Kippur War. You can buy a NOD w/ IR illuminator for 165$ at Wal Mart. Even the current issue BDU was designed (in 1985) to be low IR observable. Meaning that there was a threat 20 years ago. Much more so now, and at least that much more 20 years from now (assuming the same life cycle of uniform as BDU).

[usaf2ltdb]

They just started issuing the test uniforms for the new blue BDU's here. I went for a look and got the grand tour from a really proud MSgt. They don't look horrible in person..at least fashion-wise. And maybe at night under your desk in your cubicle you'd be camoflaged.

The material's really light, and if you starch it you get in trouble. Good call there. The undershirts are made out of dri-fit material and seem really high quality- but the buttons look uberdorky. They've got 6 styles of boots to choose from- a downgraded version of the current pilot's boot and a couple of different colors of suede. One in blue w/ an AF emblem embossed on the heel. Cute.

The name tapes include the camo pattern, the AF logo's built into the "camo" every 10 inches or so, and the shirt can be tucked in. No bottom blouse pockets.

What got me is that the MSgt said there's a woodland pattern already worked up w/ the logo in it and everything. They're just not planning to issue it unless you deploy. I love it.

US Air Force. No One Comes Close. Because we draw lots of fire.