Dealing with "The Younger Generation"

[FireForEffect]

First I'd just like to say, why didn't I find this site about 3 years ago? :x Anyway, I am an MSIV cadet and am in search of some advice form the other seniors (or even some of the juniors) out there. First, here is a little stroy:

Last week at out Lead Lab (every Thursday for us), I had just arrived at the gym on campus where we have it. The past few weeks I had been able to arrive a bit earlier than a lot of the other IVs, so I have been hearding all the other cadets as they got there to where they needed to go. This week was no different, and everything seemed to be going well, a lot of the Ivs had arrived by now, and we were getting ready to start the lab, and then proceed to our Staff Meeting. Then a group of MS I and II cadets arrived from a school on the South Side. We had been having problems with them for a number of weeks now, mainly uniform issues and such, and we always tried to correct things on the spot. I mean how much can you really gig an MSI on anyway? One of the female cadets still had her cover on after she had been in the building for a few minutes, and a member of my staff (I am the XO) told them to remove it. She proceeded to continue to walk away, saying "Yeah, yeah, I'll get it , I have my hands full." I immediatly stopped her and told her that that was not the proper way to address a senior cadet, try putting a "yes, sir" in there somewhere. She was the one out of line.
Here is the kicker: In front of half the MSIV class and 2 cadre members she says "Well OBVIOUSLY I am just doing this for the tuition money." She then turned and walked away. I'll admit, I was pretty dumbfouned, unable to believe that anyone had "actually said it." After I recovered, I pulled our C/CSM aside and grabbed the cadet. I informed her that outbursts like that would not be tollerated anymore, and that I did not want to see it happen again. She said she understood, but I know she just blew it off.

Here is where I am stuck somewhat. Does anyone have any ideas how to hadle this? I am smart enought to realize that there are people in ROTC just for the money, but she actually said it in front of people that in some way or another have control over it (remember the 2 cadre members?) How do we deal with cadets like this? It is one thing to just dismiss them as a "piece of shit", but as a future officer what is the best course of action to counsel a soldier like this? Being in the program for a least a semester should have tought them the basics of miltary customs and courtesies. This has been bothering me for a while, more than it probably should, and want to see what others think can be done with a situation such as this one. Has this sort of thing ever happened to any of you? :shock:

[jehgunnz]

Wow, incredibly stupid. And the cadre didn't say anything? Yall need some hardcore senior NCOs. Tell her you don't think, but you KNOW her candy ass will be deployed somewhere in the course of her 4 years of active duty. tell her we don't want a shitbag officer in the army, and neither do the cadre, enrollment for the program is on the rise so we wouldn't miss ya... bye! =D

[jehgunnz]

actually, what you already did and the direction of such action are probably the most appropriate. :)

[roger29]

Hey dude, first, good friggn post. Great topic to discuss on here. I'm actually an MSIII, on scholarhip since my freshmen year and have seen things like this happen time and time again. Actually, when I first read it, immediatly I thought of one particular MSI who is really just in it for the money.

Unfortuntly, there isn't much you can do about shitbags like this. Damn, for the most part, cadre don't do crap about it, and if they really cared, they should start knockign some heads. Maybe you can work out a meeting with the cadet and her moderator...or you could just PT her ass until she dies. I would tend to lean to the latter. Too bad we can't do things like that in ROTC land!

To be honest, a few of the I's in my batt have been discussing something like this in our private forum. A couple of these guys are non scholarhip but high speed and they find resentment in cadets who are scholarhip and don't do crap! In a round about way, I hint at having these guys take care of that certain person by themselves...unofficially. If ya know what I mean...and I think you do...

On the more leadership development side, can you meet with the cadet and speak with her about what she wants and is looking for. Then attempt to explain your feelings about the military and how even though she is in the military, she needs to be respectful to others wants...

[Sammy Sandbag]

First I'd just like to say, why didn't I find this site about 3 years ago?

Probably because it didn't exist, but on to your predicament. Unfortunatley, as mention earlier, in cadet land your hands are often tied as to what you can do. I would suggest that you write a negative spot report (blue card) detailing what happened. State that the cadet received an on the spot correction, disregarded it, and made disparaging remarks about the ROTC. Actually quote what the cadet said on the blue card. Give her a couple N's in the appropriate dimensions. Then set up a counselling session with the cadet, review the card, have her sign it, then file it however your BN does. If she refuses to sign it, and she seems the type, then send it up to cadre and they should take care of it.

[roger29]

Good call sammy, I still say to PT her ass until she collapses! Or, you can just smoke the entire battalion for her attitude so you get some peer pressure in there.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Good call sammy, I still say to PT her ass until she collapses! Or, you can just smoke the entire battalion for her attitude so you get some peer pressure in there.

That wouldn't be possible or wise in most cases in cadet land. As mentioned earlier, your hands are tied as to what types of disciplinary actions you can take. You are pretty much limited to counsellings. And if this cadet gives two shits about her career, she'll try to avoid things going down on paper.

[Gambit]

Ditto on all of the above, although I'll add a perspective... if I were cadre, I would actually sit back and see how you dealt with the situation, it's a great experience to have as you will most certainly run into joes with similar attitude problems.

Perhaps a good way to approach this, in addition to the negative spot report, is to put the fear of God in her. But not by PT, or whatever else... you have to make sure she understands the consequences of her actions. But realize, though, that the action need to think about is NOT blowing you off... that's a symptom of a deeper problem.

I don't know if it's possible, but I would try and get her to understand the consequences of the REAL action... taking the tuition money from the Army. Namely, the fact that she's gonna end up in the Army at the end of this. Tell her to forget about ROTC, the thing she needs to be thinking about is her career... and if she doesn't learn the ropes now, she'll be a 2LT for 4 years and get discharged. :P Seriously, you know what I mean? Maybe if she gets the big picture, she'll realize what she's in the middle of, and give at least enough of a shit to pretend to do the right thing, when everyone else is looking. And truthfully, once you've got someone trying to fake looking good, they pretty quickly realize the benefits of actually being good...

[FireForEffect]

Thanks all for the great replies. I'd like to ad da few things though: I suspect that underneath her idiotic comments may be a deeper problem, she deosn't respect authority, and she hasn't really come into a situation such as the one she put herself into up to that point. My BTN is one made up of schools from a over the Chicago area who all come together once a week for labs. As you can imagine, this naturally introduces "cliques" into our unit. While these can be helpfu a lot of the time, I think that in this case this cadet is scared of looking "weak" in front of her friends.

[roger29]

I still contend to PT her until she can't stand! My favorite, maker her hold the rope bag above her head! (our ranger team uses a giant duffle to carry the rope bridge ropes and swiss seat ropes in)

During STX, put her in a squad with all your highspeed guys, strap on a 50lbs ruck on her back and have the SQL get lost for miles and miles....

During CWST, make her do the 3 meter dive first, but make sure she knows she needs to sling three weapons on her back as well...don't let her die, just let her sink for a bit...

When she is taking her next APFT, as soon as she finishes her last lap, ask her what she is doing, "you have two more laps to go there CADET!"-this is a fun one for anyone!...

Then you always have you bear crawl for a mile, low crawl, high crawl, buddy rush for miles, grass drills and all the rest! Make her hate you, because the more she hates you, the more she will work to prove you wrong...

(In case anyone didn't know, that was just all in good fun, anyone have any other good ideas for helping the, ugh, female out?)

[Gambit]

Much like dealing with Saddam, this one... if you've got someone who's playing to the crowd, the only way to take care of it is to take the individual down a few pegs in front of the crowd. What you have to be careful about, though, is seeming like you're picking on this person. Not to pick on roger (got the sarcasm, no worries), but his comments above would only demotivate the cadet by embarrassing her in front of her peers. Punish the shit out of her, but in an admin way (since it's after the fact... if she does it again, make her drop if you can... you just can't really do physical punishment after the fact without looking like you're singling her out for something that happenned in the past, whereas paperwork exists for things that happenned in the past). She'll bitch to her friends, they'll ask why she's bitching, she won't have anywhere to go with it except admit that she deserved what she got. You're probably going to need good cadre support on this one, since you can't go all that far with disciplinary stuff on your own.

[Hammer6]

I'd punch her right in the face. We are having the same issues in my Battalion as well and I am about to go HULK on them. One girl showed up to PT with a NOSE RING IN. How dumb is that.

[TheTokenGook]

One girl showed up to PT with a NOSE RING IN. How dumb is that.
That should be easy to deal with. Just demonstrate how to properly pull a hand grenade pin.

[roger29]

I am down for kicking her in the face...Hey gambit, screw that, PT her ass until she DIES!!!! Make her hurt, I don't care about her, it would be funny and I would get pleasure out of doing it!

[Gambit]

And some people wonder why women shouldn't be in the combat arms... it's not because the chicks can or can't, it's because they'd get the piss smoked out of them!

[roger29]

Hell yeah!

[Sammy Sandbag]

Okay, before you inadvertently sign the death warrant for this topic and send it to a watery grave in the FOD bucket, please try to keep the posts within reason.

[roger29]

Ok, ok, in all seriousness, council her everyday all day if need be, it's the only thing that can be done.

[Gambit]

Okay, before you inadvertently sign the death warrant for this topic and send it to a watery grave in the FOD bucket, please try to keep the posts within reason.

Wow, we're getting advance notice now! ;)

I'm gonna stick with my point... council her yes, but make sure you council the root of the problem and not just the symptom(s).

[Hammer6]

Counciling might not be as important to a cadet with that attitude. Talk to her offline, and maybe find yourself a senior NCO to assist. (i.e MS I instructor?)

[LSUSAF04]

We have the same problems in the Air Force as well. What I've come to notice, is that the cadre do see the same things we do in people, obviously they can't (for the most part) let us in on who they feel are shitbags. With the experience I've had, I've had to express my concerns over cadets making it through the program and becoming officers. The reply I recieved from our cadre was basically that the program works and these kids will eliminate themselves. After all she is just a freshman, either she'll grow up and take the program seriously or she won't make it through. From what I've seen, for the most part, this is true. There is the occassion, when shitbags do slip through. And then you have the Senior NCO's to mess up paperwork for them and make their lives a living hell :lol: All you can do now, as a senior experienced cadet is give her guidance, council her, and put the fear of God in her. After all, at least she's not in the real Army yet, there's still a lot of time for her to eliminate herself. Then again, this is a good training experience for you, because you are going to deal with people (other officers and your own troops) that don't live up to your standards in the real Army and you are going to have to deal with them as well. So use what you have learned in ROTC and help this girl out, if she doesn't want your help, she'll be gone and you'll be satisfied knowing that you did your best as a leader and future officer.

[airjun]

obviously he didnt do anything of the things you guys mentioned, not because he didnt know it but because she was bangin hott. Am I right?

[FireForEffect]

obviously he didnt do anything of the things you guys mentioned, not because he didnt know it but because she was bangin hott. Am I right?

Actually, she is quite fat, African American, and like I said has uniform issues all the time (never has her hair up the right way) Airjun, I don't know what your moral system consists of or what year you are, but trying to hook up with an MSI or even cut them some slack just becasue they may look halfways decent doesn't really sit well with me anymore. I just want to what others think I should do at this point. For the most part, thanks all for the helpful answers.

[Gambit]

*chuckle*... come on now, FireForEffect, you must have cruised around a bit before actually opening up and posting something. Did you really think that you'd get answers without a heavy dose of sarcasm??? Lighten up a bit!

[FireForEffect]

:wink:

[Holt]

On that line, When I become an MS4, I'm just gonna shamelessly come out and say: "Ok, hot girl MS1s and 2s, whoever doesn't wanna take their PT test, come on a date with me." It's fun *and* educational!

[roger29]

Holt, what the hell are you talking about?!?! That is the most insane comment ever...

For that, Mountain Climber, start position move, ready, exercise!

[LSUSAF04]

Actually, she is quite fat, African American, and like I said has uniform issues all the time (never has her hair up the right way)

So you're telling me this chick is passing the PT test??? Like I said, the situation should work itself out, she'll end up eliminating herself.

[FireForEffect]

I dont't know her exact situation, all I know is that she said she was doing it for the tuition money. No, she doesn't look like she can pass the pt test, but you know they sometimes coddle the MSIs at first, trying to at least get them to pass it by the end of the year. For all I know she may not even be on financial benefits yet, in which case she has screwed herself even more. I'm hoping to find out more this week, hopefully she doesn't (or hopefully she does? :P ) pull any more crap, and I will keep you all posted as "the saga continues". The advice is good though, I think I am going to try to talk to her cadre instructor this week.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Talking to her instructor is a good step. Just remember to go into there with an attitude of concern, not a pissed off attitude. Tell the cadre you don't want her to make a wrong career choice and that you want to find out if there is some other hidden problem. If you just go and complain about the cadet, you'll likely get nowhere.

[Gambit]

Excellent point, listen to that one. See why he's a graduate now? ;)