Cadet supports flag burning

[Grinder]

Cadet supports flag burning



Letter to the Editor



To the Editor:
My name is Colin Tominey. I'm an Army ROTC cadet, I'm a member of the Army ROTC color guard, I'm willing to lay down my life for my country and I am fully in favor of flag burning.

In his article, Mr. Brandt makes several assertions which I believe must be challenged. First, he states that 70 percent of Americans support a flag burning amendment. To this I say "so what?"

If anything, this demonstrates that flag burning must remain legal. Yes, majority rule is key to American democracy; but so are minority rights. The majority in America has never had the right to deprive the minority of its rights.

What if all the whites in America (the majority) assembled and decided to amend the Constitution so that the Bill of Rights no longer applied to all blacks (a minority)? If this country of ours operated on a strictly majority rule system, something like this could actually happen.

Fortunately for us all, the will of the majority in America must always be tempered against the rights of the minority.

Second, Mr. Brandt states that flag burning should be illegal because it insults the memory of all the soldiers who have died for the flag. This is nonsense! I can say with complete certainty that no soldier, sailor or airman has EVER died for the flag!

The very idea that a man or woman would die for a piece of colored cloth is ludicrous. What those patriots really died for is freedom! They died because they wanted their families and friends (and complete strangers) to live in a country where they could be free. Free to dress as they wanted, free to do as they wanted and free to say what they wanted.

I would gladly face certain death in a far away land if I knew that my sacrifice would preserve the freedom (including the freedom to burn the U.S. flag) which makes my nation great.

Finally, William Brandt believes that the flag is the ultimate symbol of America, but he's wrong. Flag burning is more a symbol of America than the flag could ever hope to be. Freedom is the highest symbol of America, and flag burning is the highest symbol of freedom.

I would never dream of burning a flag, but I would be the first to defend someone else's right to do so. Freedom, in all its forms, is what makes America great. The fact that an American citizen can burn a flag in the middle of downtown Washington, D.C. and not be arrested, beaten senseless or shot, demonstrates that greatness.
Supporters of the flag burning amendment (like Mr. Brandt) mean well, but suppression of personal freedoms is NEVER the answer. Not in my country.

Colin Tominey
sophomore, political science

[Sammy Sandbag]

This was some letter to the school paper of U. of Washington posted a while ago. Now I do agree that it is the right of someone to burn the flag if they so choose to, I wouldn't say I support "flag burning" as this cadet did.


I would gladly face certain death in a far away land if I knew that my sacrifice would preserve the freedom (including the freedom to burn the U.S. flag) which makes my nation great.

My ass he would! I can't stand it when muthafuckin' 19 year olds say shit like that. This little kid has no idea the kinda shit our fightin' men and women have gone through. I believe no one can say if they would "gladly face certain death." We'd all like to think so, but there's no way you can make a statement like that. I guarantee if you asked a vet if he thought that way, he'd say "hell no, I was scared shitless, and if you aren't, you're fucking lying." But I digress.

The real point is that yes I believe that flag burning is protected under freedom of speech, we should just add a clause that says I can beat your hippy ass as an expression of my freedom of speech. Is that so much to ask?

http://www.aisforarmy.com/uploads/flagpriceless.jpg
Old Glory strikes back! Take that dirty camel jockey!

[SGT. Toolbag]

Sorry I have to disagree with that cadet. I can understand the whole freedom of speech argument, but the flag is a symbol of america, no different than money or the washington monument. I'm pretty sure you'd get arrested if you so much as piss on a national monument. So why can you burn the flag. Found this article (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,5433921%5E23711,00.html) along the lines of this sublect.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Ran across this shit earlier: http://www.lovepeoplenotmoney.com/burn.html

Warning, if you click on the flag it replaces it with a animated .gif image of the flag burning. I'd have to say this guy needs a serious ass woopin'. Browsing (very briefly) his site showed just how screwed up and off to the right (edit: Left, left damnit, I meant left) this guy is. I found this site doing a search earlier that uncovered a comments section of this site that military personnel had responded to. You can read some of the comments on there. Here's one of my favorites:


Lorax (unrest90@hotmail.com) 15 Sep 01
Thank you for a wonderful webpage. It's unfortunate to see such a vast number of blind patriots, who will drown in their own nationalism. The recent attack on the WTC buildings was a RETALIATION, not a "terrorist attack." The united states are the real terrorists, constantly terrorizing other nations with our capitalist, imperialistic motives. You people will be victims of your own demise. And don't talk to me about "if you don't like it, why don't you leave." How about if you think your country is so perfect, why don't you go live in war-torn Afghansitan, or Iraq, or any of the innumerable countries the US has raped for their oil reserves, for US corporate business interests. I spent 5 years in the us marines, and I know firsthand about US foreign policy. Once again, fantastic website, thank you for standing up for the truth!

Feel free to email this prick some common sense. I'd like to know who did him wrong. It's probably not his fault, he was a Marine afterall.

This one is more along my lines of thought:


Bill Lemieux (nobody@nowhere.com) 03 May 01
Our flag is a symbol, but a symbol of what? Freedom, right? Our veterans, (and I am a veteran myself, by the way) did not die for a piece of fabric with colors on it, they died for what it stands for- the freedoms our founding fathers tried to guarantee us when they wrote the constitution. One of the ways the founding fathers tried to protect us from oppressive governments of the future was by guaranteeing free speech. Free speech is the freedom to express your opinion, even when it runs contrary to the prevailing attitudes of the government. Another fundamentally important freedom is the freedom to own private property and to deal with your own property as you please, provided that it does not infringe directly upon the rights of your neighbor. I joined the military because I was willing to die for _your_ right to disagree with your government, even to the extent of burning the flag if such a silly and ineffectual statement means that much to you. There are other countries where speaking out against the current government will get you thrown in jail or shot. Just look at what happened in Tienanmen Square. Are those people more free, or less free, than Americans? I personally would never burn the American flag because A) I consider it offensive, and B) it's a pointless gesture. But I will fight for your right to do so, because being offensive shouldn't be against the law. To sum up, I ask that each of you ask yourself this question, and answer it honestly: Which is more important: a piece of fabric which represents our country and the concept of Liberty upon which it was founded... or Liberty itself?

However I can't really say that I would call the Flag just "a piece of cloth." Oh sure the individual flag is just cloth, but I think it's the symbolism. The Christian cross is just wood, but I'm pretty sure people get pissed off when you burn a cross. But remember that cross burning is a protected right, so it has come full circle hasn't it?

[TheTokenGook]

Of course he can say something like that. Any 19 yr old kid in cadet land knows he's not going to go off and fight anytime soon.
[quote="Grinder"]Cadet supports flag burning



I would gladly face certain death in a far away land if I knew that my sacrifice would preserve the freedom (including the freedom to burn the U.S. flag) which makes my nation great.

[Gambit]

OK, I'll be that guy for the day...

The Flag Code
Title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1
§ 8. Respect for flag

(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

Taken from: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC8 ('http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC8')

[Sammy Sandbag]

(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

buring the flag in protest and burning it to retire it are two different things. When burning the Flag to retire it, you seperate the stripes and the union (blue area). There's a whole method or script to follow when doing this, maybe I'll get motivated and look it up.

[Gambit]

burning the flag in protest and burning it to retire it are two different things. When burning the Flag to retire it, you seperate the stripes and the union (blue area). There's a whole method or script to follow when doing this, maybe I'll get motivated and look it up.

True enough... illustrates well the difference between the act of and intent behind flag-burning. Re: proper ceremony, some follow these steps...

1. Separate the union from the stripes
2. Cut the stripes into strips
3. Burn the stripes
4. Burn the union
5. Bury the ashes

Nothing's really set in stone though, the American Legion doesn't cut the flags before burning. I don't think it matters as long as it's dignified and respectful... there's often a ceremony of sorts around the event, as opposed to just chucking them in an incinerator. Some people also do stuff like pick a flag out of those being burned and turn its story into part of the ceremony. Personally I'd prefer roasting a terrorist for the occasion, but I guess you gotta go with what you have on hand.

[Murdock]

It's good to see some people actually know how it should be done. I'm sick of jokers just throwing flags in the garbage or letting them rot on the pole. Show some respect you dirty worthless hippies.

[ArmyHooah]

Sammy Sandbag, would you care for a jump to conclusions mat?


My ass he would! I can't stand it when muthafuckin' 19 year olds say shit like that. This little kid has no idea the kinda shit our fightin' men and women have gone through. I believe no one can say if they would "gladly face certain death." We'd all like to think so, but there's no way you can make a statement like that. I guarantee if you asked a vet if he thought that way, he'd say "hell no, I was scared shitless, and if you aren't, you're fucking lying." But I digress.

You'll be happy to know the ROTC cadet above spent 3 tours in Iraq, one being the initial offensive and then an additional two tours (2-70th Armor). As an armor officer he lost ZERO men under his direct command. You could only dream of being under such an exception officer. He has since left the military and is getting his doctorate from Yale University.

Seems like you sir are the sorry "muthafuckin" person who was so quick to jump to conclusions. He went and put his life on the line just as promised. You may remove your foot from your mouth now.

[Associate289]

Sammy Sandbag, would you care for a jump to conclusions mat?


My ass he would! I can't stand it when muthafuckin' 19 year olds say shit like that. This little kid has no idea the kinda shit our fightin' men and women have gone through. I believe no one can say if they would "gladly face certain death." We'd all like to think so, but there's no way you can make a statement like that. I guarantee if you asked a vet if he thought that way, he'd say "hell no, I was scared shitless, and if you aren't, you're fucking lying." But I digress.

You'll be happy to know the ROTC cadet above spent 3 tours in Iraq, one being the initial offensive and then an additional two tours (2-70th Armor). As an armor officer he lost ZERO men under his direct command. You could only dream of being under such an exception officer. He has since left the military and is getting his doctorate from Yale University.

Seems like you sir are the sorry "muthafuckin" person who was so quick to jump to conclusions. He went and put his life on the line just as promised. You may remove your foot from your mouth now.

How about you go fuck yourself instead?

You come on here, don't follow the rules and post an intro, revive a 7 year old thread, and bash the creator of this site. Congrats, you're a winner. Un4, please put a giant, flaming cock as this idiots avatar.

[Wes]

Sammy Sandbag, would you care for a jump to conclusions mat?


My ass he would! I can't stand it when muthafuckin' 19 year olds say shit like that. This little kid has no idea the kinda shit our fightin' men and women have gone through. I believe no one can say if they would "gladly face certain death." We'd all like to think so, but there's no way you can make a statement like that. I guarantee if you asked a vet if he thought that way, he'd say "hell no, I was scared shitless, and if you aren't, you're fucking lying." But I digress.

You'll be happy to know the ROTC cadet above spent 3 tours in Iraq, one being the initial offensive and then an additional two tours (2-70th Armor). As an armor officer he lost ZERO men under his direct command. You could only dream of being under such an exception officer. He has since left the military and is getting his doctorate from Yale University.

Seems like you sir are the sorry "muthafuckin" person who was so quick to jump to conclusions. He went and put his life on the line just as promised. You may remove your foot from your mouth now.

Aside from you not being able to follow simple instructions such as posting an intro before you decided to run your mouth, you also just called out the creator of this site without posting any background about yourself.
First time double No-Go. Good job, high-speed.

Now, considering he was buttoned up in a fucking tank I seriously doubt he faced "certain death" during his tours.(Yes, there is always mortars, rockets, etc... that isn't leaving the wire on foot and knocking down doors. Big difference.) Not saying Armor doesn't hold their own or do missions outside of tanks, just on the whole a different job and mentality 90% of the time.

Not losing men under your command can be shear luck. Plenty of officers can say the same and many of them can't claim it was due to their personal "awesomeness".

Lastly, go fuck yourself. Mainly for being on the side of someone who is ok with burning the American flag. But also for coming on this site and thinking that your opinion matters.

Move out and draw fire hero.

Edit: Associate beat me to the punch, I went back and edited out personal threats before I hit [Submit], reply took a bit longer. heh

[Sammy Sandbag]

Seems like you sir are the sorry "muthafuckin" person who was so quick to jump to conclusions. He went and put his life on the line just as promised. You may remove your foot from your mouth now.

Colin, I see you've been google'n yourself...

Point being (from 7 yrs ago btw) was that it is asinine for a cadet having never served to make such statements. And learn to follow the instructions, post an intro.

[Skull6]

I lost ZERO men under my command in Iraq in 1AD. That certainly doesn't mark me as some sort of Sierra Hotel commander. Doesn't mean I'm any smarter than anyone else, either. More lucky, maybe--but I have little control over that.

But I AM smart enough to follow rules. I'm half-tempted to delete the account & leave the post. I've found that its usually good to allow ignorance to advertise itself. "Let the buyer beware" & all that rot.

& last I checked, freedom of speech had it's boundaries. I'm not free to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater--because of the reaction it may cause. Frankly, I also personally see the act of burning the flag in protest as silly--its usually conducted more for "dramatic appeal" (trying to get a physical response) than one merely to express some sort of dissatisfaction. If the burners stole the flag they burn, I'll gladly push the red button, though. ;)

Hell, I used to get upset when my neighbors left their flags out overnight with no light on it. Now, I'm just glad they have at least enough pride to fly it--& not just on holidays.

I'll end by asking all to assist me in announcing far & wide, that ArmyHooah is definitely a necromancer!

[Aries]

Fuck you.

[killernurse]

Colin, I still hold you're a douchebag. I don't give a shit where you are studying. I've discharged shitty soldiers with questionable moral and ethical standards that were also accepted to the Ivy League.

By the way, it's extra douchy to talk about yourself in the third person. Please feel free to go now and continue with your ego masturbation. Because nobody is going to do that for you.

[TheTokenGook]

Un4, please put a giant, flaming cock as this idiots avatar.

:D


I lost ZERO men under my command in Iraq in 1AD.

God didn't knock down the Tower of Babel. It was Skull in his M1


By the way, it's extra douchy to talk about yourself in the third person. Please feel free to go now and continue with your ego masturbation. Because nobody is going to do that for you.

QFT

[Associate289]

Hahahhahahaha

[Un4given]

Sammy wins. He took care of the doucher's profile. :D

I gotta say though... THAT just happened. lol

[Jake the Skillet]

http://oregonstate.edu/sli/sites/defaul ... _Final.pdf (http://oregonstate.edu/sli/sites/default/files/leadership-development/Everyday_Leaders_Book_Final.pdf)

Slide 31 and 32 of 35. Only student to not have a picture posted. Colin Tominey is just trying to make himself not look like such a douche pump. Hopefully this'll stay at the top of the google searches. Defend yourself all you want, and I could even agree with you to a point. But that won't change the fact that you were a 19 year old shitstain with an opinion, jerking off over pictures of DNA.

Now, go change the world turd, and study your biochemestry heart out. And a final note, nobody worth mentioning says in a publication "I am a lot smarter than I realized I was." Solid dude, solid.

[Jake the Skillet]

Sammy wins. He took care of the doucher's profile. :D

I gotta say though... THAT just happened. lol


AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, I'm gonna wake the kids up.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Sammy wins. He took care of the doucher's profile. :D

I gotta say though... THAT just happened. lol

That wasn't me... but funny nonetheless. Hey if this guy wants to redeem himself and come back and join the fold, I'm all for it. It's going to be a little hard to live down the fact that he posted in the third person in a seven year old thread, and even more so that I was actually agreeing with his original argument, aside from the poor word choices here: "I am fully in favor of flag burning"

Either way, I don't care. Remember we only ban spammers.... and Gambit.

[Cerebroden]

Damn I missed out on all the fun.

[Sassy05]

You know you're a douche when... KN tells you so. HAHAHA.

[Skull6]

"Electra always whispers in your ear before she kills you."

KN = Electra?! Man, why can't I find any pictures of her on the internet, with her wearing that leather outfit in an ACO motif?!?!?!? :D

(& it was not I that deleted the profile, as I figured that since Sammy knew him, he'd be the bigger hammer.)

[killernurse]

Silly Skull, I never let those pictures get posted on the internet.

[Aries]

Either way, I don't care. Remember we only ban spammers.... and Gambit.

And John Galt

[Trooper82]

Hopefully I'm not beating a dead horse on this thread but I wanted to share my thoughts.

First of all, anyone who burns a flag in my presence (barring the traditional decommissioning of a flag of course) will most likely be met with a strong right hook and a swift kick to the genitalia from myself. Let's make it very clear that I think burning a flag is up there with pissing on George Washington's grave in the offensive actions category.

However I don't think someone should be arrested for burning a flag. We are a country based on freedom of choice. That being said, I don't think that flag burning should be protected under the law. By which I mean that if you burn a flag and you get your ass kicked for doing such you should have no legal protection for doing such.

In my eyes, burning a flag and then trying to sue someone for beating you within an inch of your life is like taking a piss on Johnnie Cochran's face then trying to hire him for your lawyer. It ain't gonna happen.

[Rumple_Manskin]

However I don't think someone should be arrested for burning a flag. We are a country based on freedom of choice. That being said, I don't think that flag burning should be protected under the law. By which I mean that if you burn a flag and you get your ass kicked for doing such you should have no legal protection for doing such.


I completely agree.

Also, I wonder if you could argue that it's a hate crime against the servicemen/women who have fought for what the flag stands for. Just a thought...

[cmtominey]

So, I'm the guy that wrote that letter to the editor all those years ago (I don't know who ArmyHooah is, but it's not me), and I'm here to clear the air and hopefully bury the hatchet.

1) I was an AD armor officer, and I did fight in Iraq (two tours, not three as posted by ArmyHooah). I did lose guys in Iraq, and even if I hadn't, we all know that's as much about luck as it is any real skill (a buried 155 can take anyone- my company lost an entire four-man crew to one IED). I was a good (not great) officer, and I handled my business. I left to become a doctor, and I am now at Yale studying to be medical scientist (and yes, Yale is chock-full of D-Bags, as is the rest of the country).

2) I never "supported" flag burning- that title was made-up by the editors of the paper. My argument was that we shouldn't amend the Constitution to prevent it. People are dicks, and some of those dicks are going to burn the flag to get a rise out of people. This is America, and you can pretty much be as big a dick as you want- that's at least part of what I think is so great about our country. Be what you want, even if other people hate it.

3) Burning the flag is HUGELY disrespectful to many of us, and I very firmly agree with the previous post that if you burn a flag, you should be on the lookout for a swift kick to the face. It's the same thing that would happen if you walked up to a guy and insulted his wife or called him a fag. Disrespect leads to disrespect, and while I don't think violence is the right answer, I definitely understand it.

4) My article was ridiculous and overly dramatic. What do you want? I was 19! How many people on these boards weren't idiotic 19 year olds? I don't think I was wrong, but my presentation was over the top, and I'm sorry for that. (Again...19!)

5) You definitely don't have to agree with me, but I am actually really surprised at the lack of respect that I've been shown in most of these responses. Yeah, I wrote some flowery junk when I was a student/cadet- but then I went out and put it on the line for my country. As I mentioned earlier, I wasn't a hero, but I was there. I thought that would count for something when I got out, especially when I was dealing with fellow vets. I'm all for a good debate, but let's bury the trashtalk from here forward.

Sorry this post is so long- thanks for hearing me out!

CT ::turret::

PS- I do google myself every now and again- there is some crazy stuff out there, and you need to know about it when it involves you!

[Jake the Skillet]

hmhmhmmmhmmmmmmmmm

[TheTokenGook]

ha ha armyhooah was a douche