Why are USMA officers so jaded with...life

[The Sharaffe]

I see USMA Officer's that hate being in the Military, and worst yet fail the PT test at higher rates than the others. Aren't there strict PT standards at USMA? I'm not by any means saying all of them are like that, not even most...just a few have shocked me with their lack of motivation. So if any of you Cadets are out there, give me a heads up,

[Sammy Sandbag]

hmmm, maybe because they don't have a schaweet website like aisforarmy.com to come visit and rant their little hearts out. I don't know Sharaffe, you should though. Didn't you go to USMA Band Camp or something? I can tell you that CenterStall.com (http://www.centerstall.com) sure ain't alleviating any tension.

[Gambit]

hmmm, maybe because they don't have a schaweet website like aisforarmy.com to come visit and rant their little hearts out.

Word on the street has it that UisforUSMA.com failed for a lack of posts... apparently no cadets felt it necessary to 'stoop so low' as to publicize their gripes online. Guess the bad press from AnArmyOfOneOpinion.com was too much for them to overcome... almost makes you happy to be ROTC, eh?

[Sammy Sandbag]

I think Gambit just took the lead in the "witty post" contest.

[ThunderHT]

Word is that the reason some USMA graduates are so jaded is because they have just finished 4 years of solid Army "Hooah-ness." And they are sick of it by the time they graduate.

I do not know their quality of life or pass privileges, but I know even for me here at VT, if there was not an escape on the weekends, I would kill someone. I would guess they are the same way. But they don't get the escape. And when they graduate, it is straight in to the Army for nine(?) years.

So I am not saying that it is an excuse, but I'll say that I understand.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Thanks for the insight ThunderHT, it's about time we got some input from someone at one of the schools with a full time cadet corps. I would say that is a very good reason to be less than hooah, but it still is a volunteer service if you know what I mean.

[Gambit]

but it still is a volunteer service if you know what I mean.

Ha... tell that to some of my friends' fathers...

[The Sharaffe]

If you are referring to the stop loss, get over it. They signed up to defend their nation, and if the people of the United States need them to stay a few more months for national security reasons, than that's what they do. It's plenty legal

[FiveYearPlan]

You are ADA they force branch that at West Point. Your response is stupid.

[zchpytn]

I go to West Point and I'm not "jaded... with life."

[Hammer6]

Read 'Absolutely American' - 4 Years at USMA, probably not the same input that our West Point brethren can help us out with, but our LTC made us read it, and it's decent. Get it from the library - don't buy it.

[Gambit]

If you are referring to the stop loss, get over it.

Actually, I was referring to my friends that get told it's the military "or else". That's comical to me. ;)

[Sammy Sandbag]

I go to West Point and I'm not "jaded... with life."


I'm not by any means saying all of them are like that, not even most...

I think we can all agree that there are jaded officer's from all sources of commission. The Sharaffe was just making a personal observation. While I haven't been around enough USMA grads to make a statement of my own, I am willing to say that every institution has its fair share of high drag butter bars.

[cornbread]

i would agree, i have seen some amazing officers come out of ROTC and OCS as well as some pretty shady ones. Same thing at WP. I see some great officers that graduated from here and some who, well, played the system for all its worth, every source has a few people who can slip through the cracks. then it becomes our job to get them out of the army.

[MoJo]

I see USMA Officer's that hate being in the Military, and worst yet fail the PT test at higher rates than the others. Aren't there strict PT standards at USMA? I'm not by any means saying all of them are like that, not even most...just a few have shocked me with their lack of motivation. So if any of you Cadets are out there, give me a heads up,

USMA officers fail PT tests at higher rates than others? Where did you get that statistic from? I used to be an ROTC cadet myself and we regularly had over 25% of our "unit" fail the APFT on a monthly basis. Yes, most of those were contracted!

[airjun]

"You are ADA they force branch that at West Point. Your response is stupid."


What the hell?!?! geezz Aisforarmy is getting popular we have our first troll!

[Zirkowitz]

Read 'Absolutely American' - 4 Years at USMA, probably not the same input that our West Point brethren can help us out with, but our LTC made us read it, and it's decent. Get it from the library - don't buy it.

i actually bought it this past weekend. libraries scare me. nevertheless, its a pretty good book. gets the zirk seal of approval.

[roger29]

In my opinion, you are correct in stating WPer's are jaded. First, most of them are smart kids from high school, who sat at home, studied and worked hard to get into the point. Nothing wrong with this, but when you are thrown abrubtly into a military setting so quickly it can have a lot of social impacts on your emotions and thoughts. For a nice upper middle class white kid that's never left home, who is always getting nice 8 hours of sleep a night and studies in his free time, coming into West Point "boot camp" is almost tramatic for them. This is wear I believe they state how tough it is at WP.

Another problem with WP cadets is that for four years, all they have force, spoon fed is how great THEY are and how THEY are the best that the army has to offer. They get classes on ring knocking and are explained how WP is the only true source of commission.

As for failing PT tests, I dunno. I have no statistic on that, but I do know that they do not have organized PT. My ROTC battalion has PT M-F 0700-0800, plus Ranger Training and P/R. WP cadets don't get this, instead they need to join a sport. My friend is at WP, his sport he joined was paintball...is that gonna really get you fit? I don't this so, but maybe they do extra stuff...

Overall, WP cadets are getting a great education and are a part of alot of tradition. But to be honest, I think they are a relic, they simply are living in uniform, going to class, and having to follow some annoying rules that makes no impact on your officer ability. All commissioning sources are equal in their own way, however, from my point of view, WP is alot for nothing.

[FiveYearPlan]

Such a bold statement. I love your type. You are to ROTC what a shitbag is to West Point...The cliché the continues to create barriers and constantly carrying a chip on their shoulder. Let us not forget that we are all going into the same Army. You my friend, have a lot more development before you enter the profession of arms. Always remember that attitudes like yours have no place in the army (you will not succeed with it).

West Point does not have classes that teach an over inflated sense of grandeur. We are constantly inundated with the military system by the nature of the beast. Everyone had the same opportunity to attend either system of commissioning. I think that your warped sense of what a West Pointer is can easily be seen in any ROTC officer- who is really jaded here. A shitty officer, is a shitty officer. They can come from ANY commissioning source. Get use to it.

[Gambit]

You know, it's funny... you're both right enough to be called correct, but you've also both got your own shitty attitudes about the subject. At the end of the day, WP cadets get a great education, and all that other crap. They also live and breathe the Army... and that's why they're there. ROTC cadets don't do that, which is why it's often hard for them to measure up to the standard WP cadets can be at... the only way to out-drill a team that spends 4 hours a day drilling is to practice harder, and ROTC cadets have the mixed blessing of being able to do other things with their free time. Take it however you want.

WP/ROTC is also analagous to private/public high schools... people that go to new england-style boarding schools get a great education, but sometimes come off as asshole because they went to an "elite school". There's truth in that, although it doesn't make it better... same with WP cadets. I've met a lot of stellar leaders that came out of the Point, and most of them have a healthy dose of arrogance about it. That's fine... I don't understand what they went though and what they have, which is why I think they're arrogant. Then again, they tend to thinnk that ROTC cadets don't have what they do b/c they've never actually been to "college", and missed out on a lot of experience we got... so it's all apples and oranges.

So, my bottom line opinion? WP cadets tend to be arrogant assholes. FiveYearPlan, you're proving my point well. But who gives a shit... you earned that right. I don't have a problem if you think WP is the shit, you've got some great traditions I'll never be privy to. Just don't think I'm a worse for having come out of ROTC... we've done some stuff you never have as well. That's why there are multiple commissioning sources... pride in your chosen method should never be turned into haughtiness or considering another method is inferior. Both of our types are needed by the Army, so let's quit bitching and focus on the real problems.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Both of our types are needed by the Army, so let's quit bitching and focus on the real problems.

Gambit, you made about the best sense out of anyone here so far, minus the little statement that West Pointer's earned the right to be arrogant. No one earns the right to be arrogant, especially if they are basing that off of what school they attended.

Roger29, making sweeping generalizations will get you into trouble, as you can see. I'm not doubting that there are USMA grads with poor attitudes, just as there are OCS and ROTC grads with poor attitudes.


You my friend, have a lot more development before you enter the profession of arms. Always remember that attitudes like yours have no place in the army (you will not succeed with it).

This is coming from the same guy that was insulting other's branches and making statements like "if you wanted your first choice, should have gone to West Point" Fiveyearplan, you are only confirming the beliefs of Roger29, as well as being hypocritical. Take a look at your own statements before you speak.

[MoJo]

Roger29,

Let me try to give you the perspective of an ROTC cadet who chose to go to USMA.

Yes, you are correct in stating that the average West Pointer had a better academic record than the average ROTC kid. It's just a lot harder to get into USMA than into Northern State College ROTC. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a fact.

But you leave out a very important point: Getting into USMA is NOT just academics! Not even close! They also look at your athletics and leadership activities. I was an All-State miler and captain of 2 sports in high school. At my time in ROTC, I was THE ONLY All-State athlete in the entire detachment. Now that I am going to USMA, the track coaches don't even think I'm fast enough to run for them!! (I ran a 4:21 mile...)

You make some generalizations about race and society. Guess what? I'm not white. About 20% of USMA's corps of cadets is minority. I won't even address your 8 hours of sleep theory because that is outright silly.

About how tough, "boot camp" is for cadets at USMA, first off, they don't have boot camp. It's called Cadet Basic Training. Second, almost every USMA cadet I've spoken to has said the academic year is much harder than CBT. How about the kids who "whine" about how tough Ranger Challenge is? I did that for 2 years, and we won our Brigade. It was a joke...Airborne School was harder than Ranger Challenge. High School track was harder than Ranger Challenge.

As far as WP cadets beeing force spoonfed how great THEY are...how would you know? And don't tell me that's not true on the other side either. In my ROTC detachment, our PMS would frequently give us speeches about how awesome our program is, how great our cadre are, how great our cadets are, blah blah blah. And my PMS and a lot of PMSs at other schools do state their disdain for USMA publicly, often calling it a waste of money and verbally putting down USMA as a commissioning source. The road runs both ways.

As far as "organized PT for ROTC," who are you kidding??? First of all, USMA doesn't have regular PT because they expect you to have the personal responsibility to workout on your own! ROTC drags people to PT because if they didn't, almost everyone would fail the APFT. Hence, PT sessions in ROTC are always catered for the weakest, and is a general waste of time for anyone who comes close to maxing the APFT. Plus, basically 25% of each PT session is taken up for accountability, and stretching and warming up. Ranger Challenge PT is tough, but that only lasts until mid October. Bottom line: A lot fewer USMA cadets fail the APFT than ROTC cadets.

As far as USMA cadets doing nothing more than following annoying rules...have you ever heard of "attention to detail?" or "discipline?" or "pride?" You can easily tell how proud a unit is by looking at their appearance...and I promise you the West Point kids with their polished boots are far prouder than the ROTC kids who have never even heard of Kiwi or don't even know how to iron/press their BDUs. I think at our last FTX, we had 2 cadets lose their Kevlar helmets on the land nav course. Attention to detail.

You were right about one thing...WP cadets are getting a damn good education and are part of one of the most historic American traditions.

As far as WP vs. ROTC vs. OCS...that all depends on your own personal preference and qualifications. It is stupid to put down one over the other. All 3 produce shitbags and superstars.

[MoJo]

A lot of it also depends on your ROTC detachment:

I have heard nothing but good things about Texas A&M, Norwich, or VMI's ROTC programs. And then there are those rather sketchy programs :?

[Sammy Sandbag]

A lot of it also depends on your ROTC detachment:

I have heard nothing but good things about Texas A&M, Norwich, or VMI's ROTC programs. And then there are those rather sketchy programs :?

They're called Battalions Mojo, detachments are Air Force ROTC. And for what it's worth, you have to remember that unlike West Point, where your education and military training are all rolled into one, ROTC is seperate from it's respective university. When comparing ROTC programs, you have to consider the quality of the civilian education as well. Without naming any names, it's important to remember that a good battalion/corps does not equal a good education or make it a good institution. ROTC battalions are rated according to their commission ratio versus number of cadets versus student population. Other things such as camp scores and OML come into play as well. But does being a ROTC stud make you a good student or leader? Not necessarily.

Also, all the schools you listed are senior military schools with fulltime cadet corps. Of course those cadets are going to know a little bit more about the military than your average ROTC cadet, but they are also required to live in military only dorms, wear uniforms 5 days a week, have multiple formations every day, PT every day, etc. You should be compairing those schools to West Point rather than other "normal" programs.

[Gambit]

When comparing ROTC programs, you have to consider the quality of the civilian education as well. Without naming any names, it's important to remember that a good battalion/corps does not equal a good education or make it a good institution.

It's also important to note that at some schools, ROTC is very unwelcome. I know some cadets at a liberal school who, since the whole conflict in "Southwest Asia" started, have actually gotten spit on and called names by other students, and on the worst days (usually uniform/lab days) have required escorts from campus security to get through protestors. These cadets are going through things that are unfathomable at a service academy, and will have a perspective shared by few other newly-commissioned officers... it's almost like Vietnam all over again. It never got that bad for my BN, but there are elements at the school that are constantly trying to get rid of AROTC for, among other things, the Army's policy on homosexuality. Thankfully, the $3 million+ per year in tutition the Army brings to the table at my school is enough to convince the board to ignore most naysayers.

While life for a cadet at one of the senior service military schools or service academies, as Sammy noted, is equally as military as academic (give or take), students in "normal" ROTC BNs are adding the military on top of their civilian life, and are more often looked at funny for it than accepted as normal. Mojo, sounds like you know this part well... nice time, by the way!

One other note... Sammy, when I said WP cadets had the right to be arrogant, I misspoke, thanks for pointing it out... I more meant that they have a right to be proud of their tradition. It's a phenomenal tradition, and anyone who enjoys pure militance is probably jealous. But I'm very proud of what I went through, also, and anyone who wants to look at me and say I shouldn't be when they don't have a clue of what I have... well, I have little tolerance for such close-minded individuals.

[thepanther]

What it all boils down to is the individual, not the school or the program.

[MoJo]

What it all boils down to is the individual, not the school or the program.

I agree the individual is the most important part...but I also think there's truth in the notion that some people will be more successful based on their environment.

Some people in ROTC should probably be at USMA, and some people in USMA should probably have joined ROTC...and some cadets shouldn't have joined at all.

[Gambit]

but I also think there's truth in the notion that some people will be more successful based on their environment.

Ditto that. A good PMS, professor, mentor, etc. can make all the difference in a cadet/student/person's life choices & attitude.

[MoJo]

So I'm interested in the Greek System at USMA...anyone know anything about the Rush schedule?

[thepanther]

A good PMS can make a difference, but a cadet shouldn't blame a bad PMS or their school for their poor performance. It's all a matter of what you want to get out of it and how much you're willing to give to get that. In the end you're the responsible one.

[MoJo]

A good PMS can make a difference, but a cadet shouldn't blame a bad PMS or their school for their poor performance. It's all a matter of what you want to get out of it and how much you're willing to give to get that. In the end you're the responsible one.

With that logic, I guess parents aren't really responsible for their kids either huh?

Or a good coach isn't responsible for the performance of the athlete?

You're missing the important concept that some cadets simply do not know any better. They don't know "what they want to get out of it," and they don't even know what is required to get what they don't know they want. It's up to the PMS and cadre to provide this crucial guidance, and sometimes it's just not there. No matter how good hearted a cadet is, if he doesn't have the proper training and guidance, and nobody tells him otherwise, he's going to suffer.

[roger29]

Ok, basically, I read about two posts after the one I had put up...Listen, we all like to argue, what the hell qualifications do any of you have over me to say I am wrong in what I'm saying. All your arguments are based on your opinion, just like mine. Don't try and argue with me with race and society because, guess what, if there wasn't a debate on that subject then all of americas problems would be solved.

Good to hear that it's not all athletics. Ok, big deal, I guess there aren't any all americans in any other commissioning source...

You have no idea what you are talking about regarding ROTC organized pt. Don't know about other schools, but our pt is no joke. We had a kid transfer out to WP last year...bearly passed APFT, guess what he does now for his sport...paintball club. For christ sake, I am growing quite tired of same old arguments that dumb people present...

In all honesty, it comes down to this, we all become officers. Most suck, few are good, just my opinion. On average, WPers are cocky, arrogant, a$$h0le$. Many ROTC commissionies have very little knowledge of the tradition that the point offers. Wow, oh well, our loss! Guess what, I don't give a rats ass who you are or where you got your commission from. I hate everyone equally. All I want is to lead my soldiers, and lead them well. Too many times I see cadets commission who are too selfish to realize how immature they are and that they have no clue about life or people...

[AirborneAli]

And because I haven't commented in a while....

Everyone will have the same rank, and one week into getting a real job and real soldiers, you won't give a shit how all the LTs got there, only that they did and there is a job to be done.

Don't focus so much on the journey to your shiny gold bar, what you get or get denied, how unfair it is for you or for someone at the Academy or ROTC or OCS. The goal is the bar, the job, the responsibility, and the honor you have to lead troops. Soldiers don't care how you got there, just that you're there to lead them.

[MoJo]

roger29,

I don't even know where to begin responding to your post. Try relaxing a little bit, and typing a bit more clearly and with more organization next time. Then perhaps you won't disgrace your ROTC BN and University so much through your demonstrated poor writing ability, and confused thought process.

All your arguments are based on your opinion, just like mine.

Actually, I wasn't arguing anything. I was stating published statistics, and giving insight based on my own ROTC experiences.

Don't try and argue with me with race and society because, guess what, if there wasn't a debate on that subject then all of americas problems would be solved.

This run-on sentence does not make any sense whatsoever. I suggest you learn how to read and write properly, as it is a crucial skill required of all officers.

Good to hear that it's not all athletics. Ok, big deal, I guess there aren't any all americans in any other commissioning source...

Where did I say that there aren't any All-Americans in other commissioning sources? I merely told you that I was the only distinguished athlete in my ROTC BN. I did so to show that while having an All-State athlete in ROTC is rather rare, it is common at USMA.

You have no idea what you are talking about regarding ROTC organized pt.

Do I necessarily need to know what I am talking about to be able to tell you that our PT was a joke? I think not. Anyone can tell you that a 30 minute run at a 10min/mile pace with people falling out is pretty sad.

We had a kid transfer out to WP last year...bearly passed APFT, guess what he does now for his sport...paintball club.

Here we go, down the same old path...using an exception to the rule as a tool for generalizing an entire institution.

For christ sake, I am growing quite tired of same old arguments that dumb people present...

Yes, this is where you prove exactly how close-minded you are. You are doing exactly what so many, "dumb people," like to do..."I know this one guy, and he was a douchebag, so all West Pointers must be douchebags."

On average, WPers are cocky, arrogant, a$$h0le$.

That statement alone makes you a bigger arrogant asshole than anyone else on this forum.

I hate everyone equally. All I want is to lead my soldiers, and lead them well.

Yes, hating your soldiers and your chain of command is going to make you a very effective leader.

Too many times I see cadets commission who are too selfish to realize how immature they are and that they have no clue about life or people...

Look in the mirror...you'll see one more.

[The Sharaffe]

We can all agree both produce good and bad officers. I do not believe that West Point produces bad leaders, I just wonder why should the tax payers and the Military spend around $300,000 to produce the same level of Officer that can be produced through ROTC or OCS? I don't want to offend, I've had this same friendly conversation with my WP peers/friends, no need to get worked up about it

[Gambit]

I hate everyone equally.

I love arguments where comments like this come out. Wheeee!

Now back to the non-offensive conversation...


I just wonder why should the tax payers and the Military spend around $300,000 to produce the same level of Officer that can be produced through ROTC or OCS?

Given the majority of this particular topic, I'm not even going to comment on the level of officer that any commissioning source provides... I'll let Roger29, MoJo, and FiveYearPlan take care of that. ;) Seriously, though, I think that WP is a very valuable part of the military institution, just like the Naval & Air Force Academies. Legend has it that in order to be an officer in Washington's Continental Army, you had to be a brother Mason (as was George), because those were the people he felt comfortable trusting. Result? Only one betrayed him, Benedict Arnold. My point? The military always has been and always will be a separate culture, a club, a way of life unto itself. Taken from that viewpoint, look at the different ways leaders are produced: OCS takes enlisted soliders and turns them into officers; ROTC takes civilians and makes them officers while incorporating the civilian lifestyle; an Academy takes civilians out of the civilian lifestyle as much as possible and creates military leaders out of them. Now... I am IN NO WAY suggesting that one is better than the other, and am still sticking by my point that ALL ARE NECESSARY (a WPer, for the most part, will never have had the experience of having BEEN a troop, as an OCS Officer would), but the fact of the matter is that WP is a more "purely military" environment. They get to do things other commissioning sources can't, and are an integral framework of the military culture. I think that the investment is worthwhile, and that we'd be losing something important without them.

Also, don't forget that sometimes it costs pretty close to the same amount... with tuition at my school nearly at $40,000/year, USACC is dropping over $100,000 per scholarship cadet before we even start talking about stipend and book money, much less uniforms, training expenses, etc.

[The Sharaffe]

Lets just say I have some experience with West Point, and I agree with alot of your points, but as almost all West Point grads will tell you, West Point is not the Military. The problem with alot of Military schools is not the school itself, it's the enviroment in it. Between Beast, and Buckner the Cadets are treated so poorly that they become jaded with the Military. While in ROTC, a good bit of the Cadets come in to the Military with a positive impression of it. The best officer I have ever seen was from WP, but in general I think OCS tends to produce the best leaders. (Just what I've seen, but God knows I'm wrong about alot of things)

[MoJo]

Lets just say I have some experience with West Point, and I agree with alot of your points, but as almost all West Point grads will tell you, West Point is not the Military. The problem with alot of Military schools is not the school itself, it's the enviroment in it. Between Beast, and Buckner the Cadets are treated so poorly that they become jaded with the Military. While in ROTC, a good bit of the Cadets come in to the Military with a positive impression of it. The best officer I have ever seen was from WP, but in general I think OCS tends to produce the best leaders. (Just what I've seen, but God knows I'm wrong about alot of things)


Well I hope you guys don't take this the wrong way...but it is true that LTG Hal Moore (We Were Soldiers Once and Young,) LTG Abizaid (CENTCOM CO,) the current Division Commanders of both the 82nd and 101st Airborne, as well as LTC Danny McKnight and CPT Steele (Black Hawk Down,) were USMA grads...so I think in those specific cases, the $300,000 was well worth the money.

I heard this isn't the case as much nowadays, but it used to be that USMA officers had a better record of long service in the military than any other commissioning source. Example: How many LTCs and above do you know that graduated from OCS?

If I'm wrong on any of the above, please feel free to correct me.

[Sammy Sandbag]

GEN Schoomaker (http://www.army.mil/leaders/CSA/bio.htm): University of Wyoming
GEN Casey (http://www.army.mil/leaders/VCSA/vcsabio.htm): Georgetown Univesity
GEN Shelton (http://www.armyhistoryfnd.org/armyhist/research/detail2.cfm?webpage_id=141&page_type_id=3): North Carolina State University
GEN Shalikashvili (http://www.armyhistoryfnd.org/armyhist/research/detail2.cfm?webpage_id=144&page_type_id=3): OCS
GEN Powell (http://www.armyhistoryfnd.org/armyhist/research/detail2.cfm?webpage_id=142&page_type_id=3): City University of New York
GEN Decker (http://www.armyhistoryfnd.org/armyhist/research/detail2.cfm?webpage_id=92&page_type_id=3): Lafayette College
LTG Vines (http://www.bragg.army.mil/18abn/cg.htm): University of Alabama
MG Chiarelli (http://pao.hood.army.mil/1stcavdiv/leaders/leaders.htm): Seattle University

to name a few

[MoJo]

GEN Schoomaker (http://www.army.mil/leaders/CSA/bio.htm): University of Wyoming
GEN Casey (http://www.army.mil/leaders/VCSA/vcsabio.htm): Georgetown Univesity
GEN Shelton (http://www.armyhistoryfnd.org/armyhist/research/detail2.cfm?webpage_id=141&page_type_id=3): North Carolina State University
GEN Shalikashvili (http://www.armyhistoryfnd.org/armyhist/research/detail2.cfm?webpage_id=144&page_type_id=3): OCS
GEN Powell (http://www.armyhistoryfnd.org/armyhist/research/detail2.cfm?webpage_id=142&page_type_id=3): City University of New York
GEN Decker (http://www.armyhistoryfnd.org/armyhist/research/detail2.cfm?webpage_id=92&page_type_id=3): Lafayette College
LTG Vines (http://www.bragg.army.mil/18abn/cg.htm): University of Alabama
MG Chiarelli (http://pao.hood.army.mil/1stcavdiv/leaders/leaders.htm): Seattle University

to name a few


Now I wasn't saying that ROTC doesn't have its share of higher ups. What I was implying, is that although USMA only graduates about 1000 new 2LTs every year, as opposed to over 4000 new 2LTs via ROTC, USMA seems to have just as many if not more officers in the higher echelons as ROTC. That should be a testament to the overall quality of the USMA program.

[Sammy Sandbag]

That should be a testament to the overall quality of the USMA program.

I'd say that's more of a testament to the "Good ol' Boy" program more than anything.

[MoJo]

That should be a testament to the overall quality of the USMA program.

I'd say that's more of a testament to the "Good ol' Boy" program more than anything.

I'm sure that plays a role. But how much?

I think it's more attributed to the fact that a lot of people join the military for the college money, or less than honorable reasons. And naturally it is a lot easier for people with those motives to survive and make it through ROTC, than through a stringent environment like USMA, where those people are far more likely to be weeded out.

[Sammy Sandbag]

I think it's more attributed to the fact that a lot of people join the military for the college money, or less than honorable reasons. And naturally it is a lot easier for people with those motives to survive and make it through ROTC, than through a stringent environment like USMA, where those people are far more likely to be weeded out.

And you think people don't go to USMA just for the free education? I could name names (I won't) of officers who could not afford school otherwise, many are still in, others got out once their service commitment was up. That is a fact of life present in both ROTC and the service academies. There is nothing "less than honorable" about joining the military just to pay for your education.

[Gambit]

There is nothing "less than honorable" about joining the military just to pay for your education.

Ditto that. I'll also note again the cultural difference between WP/OCS/ROTC... one could also say (devil's advocate here, not actually saying it as I can't back it up) that ROTC cadets "got to see what they're missing", while WP cadets are indoctrinated in doing the military thing through and through. Of course once you actually start your service it's all even... but you know what they say, get 'em young. I'd bet that the tradition keeps WP cadets around longer than ROTC cadets, although I'll still say that it really doesn't have much to do with the quality of leader.

Sammy, don't forget GEN Ellis (CG, FORSCOM, Morgan State University), GEN Jack Keane (former Army Vice Chief of Staff, Fordham University), MG Rochelle (CG, USAREC, Norfolk State University), MG Thrasher (CG, USACC, North Georgia Military College--notably NOT a senior service military academy). GEN Byrnes (CG, TRADOC) is an OCS grad.

[The Sharaffe]

Eitehr way....I got laid and drunk alot in college, watched a great football program, and had the best four years of my life. Believe it or not, I managed to get the same bars on my shoulder that USMA hands out

[ThunderHT]

North Georgia is a Senior Military College. Up there with VPI, VMI, Citadel, Texas A&M and Norwich.

[Gambit]

My bad... it's never been mentioned in my interactions with ROTC... they just talk about Va Tech, VMI, Tx A&M, the Citadel, and Norwich. Always thought that was funny.

[MoJo]

This is a post from a Been There Done That USMA grad from http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb. This helped me make my decision to go to USMA, so I thought some of you might find it an interesting read:

I'd like to clarify a couple points. 1) "Field time"- I was a member of the infantry tactics club. Back when I was there, cadets could still go to Ranger School in the summer, so guess who the cadet leadership was for that group. We'd get together once a month or so, draw our bang-bang sticks, and go through the planning, rehearsal and execution phase of the missions you run in Suck School (raid, ambush, recon), usually under the leadership of a very recent Suck School grad, along with Ranger and SF qual'd officers and NCOs in the academic staff. We'd also run live fire ranges and do land nav training. Now, I understand, they also get to jump with active units (if already jump qual'd; last I heard they jumped with 5th SFG), they can go to Sandhurst over their spring break to do field time in Scotland and Wales, they can go to Germany to earn German jump wings, the Abzeichung fuer Leistungen, die Schuetzenschnurr und das Sportabzeichen. All decent "field soldier" training, in my opinion, but then, I'm one of those spit and polish, never spent time in the field West Pointers that are only worried about their careers. :roll: There's also an armor tactics club, but they're more sand table oriented, due to training aid constraints (tough to borrow an M1A1 and boogie around the mountains by USMA). There's also a combat shooting club that competes with other schools in the skills that comprise their namesake.

2) Opportunity to learn military-applicable skills--As for the technical mountain experience, there's a mountaineering club that spends a LOT of time in the 'Gunks (if you don't know, you ain't a climber) doing trad routes year round with some really nice, school provided racks. The sky-diving team has been nationally ranked for many years, and even spend time training with the Golden Knights. Those boys put in some serious canopy time, devoting almost all school breaks in the AY and most weekends jumping. The SCUBA club, when I was there, was sport oriented, but lead by a former SF Scuba team leader O-3. They were by no means a tactical club, but they got a good taste of some mission profiles from the OIC. And then there's the Sandhurst competiton, very similar to the Ranger Challenge that ROTC holds. Cadets can choose that as their mandatory springtime intramural sport. I did that for two years, and spent far too much time literally running through the mountains with a PRC-77 and combat kit while training for the competition.

3) ~95% of my professors were AD officers who spent a good deal of time discussing life in the Army (not just one class a week, but EVERY class EVERY day). Oh, and lets not forget the endless professional development classes, and the sleep inducing morals and ethics as an officer classes, and the honor classes, and the fact we fell under the UCMJ, and the military intercession classes after Christmas break, and...Starting to get my point?

4) Summer break--I think the most leave (yup, it was leave, not summer break; something to do with soldiers having to have a valid DA31 when away from their unit, hmmm)I ever had over the summer months was 21 days. The rest of the time was spent either in Beast, Camp Buckner, Ft Knox, at Airborne School, serving at Ft Benning as a Drill Cadet, serving as a Beast 1SG, or going to VTARNG Mountain Warfare School. Most summers I had less than two weeks to go play civilian at home before it was time to go back to learning how to be a solider. How long is Basic and Advanced Camp again? What do ROTC cadets do their freshman and sophomore summers? By no means do I intend to disparage ROTC as a commissioning source, but all those inept, unsure, confused USMA grads sure do spend a lot of time playing Army over their four years.

Yes, I probably went off a bit here, but I just get tired of people with no REAL experience crapping on the ol' alma mater without knowing what goes on behind the grey walls. Frankly, I never wore my class ring around or ever told anyone I was a USMA grad because of these very same dumbass stereotypes seen here. I wanted to be taken for who I was, not pre-judged by myths and rumors perpetuated by the envious and/or unknowing.

Quite clearly the training at USMA is far more in-depth and provides more opportunities for military professional development...that $300,000 is not wasted. Now of course it's up to the individual to seize these opportunities and make good of it.

[Sammy Sandbag]

How long is Basic and Advanced Camp again? What do ROTC cadets do their freshman and sophomore summers?

What do ROTC cadets their Summers? How about, airborne, air assualt, scuba, mountain, NOWAR, Camp Buckner, CTLT, etc.


By no means do I intend to disparage ROTC as a commissioning source

Sounds like it to me.


I wanted to be taken for who I was, not pre-judged by myths and rumors perpetuated by the envious and/or unknowing.

Myths and rumors eh? Envious and unknowing? This guy is only perpetuating the sterotype, not helping it. For a sterotype to have evolved, there obviously had to be a number of officers who fit the mold.

[MoJo]

Just for reference, the post above was in response to a gentleman who stated that the only way USMA differs from ROTC is by doing a lot more spit and polish DnC, that USMA does not field training, and that USMA has little or nothing to do with the military except serving as just another commissioning source.

Obviously, the gentleman above responded with a little bit of annoyance :)

[Gambit]

Whoa, Sammy... starting to sound pretty jaded yourself!! What happenned to the impartial butter bar we all know and love? ;) I read the previous post as someone sharing the opportunities that they'd taken advantage of... although, yes, he decidedly did not have the benefit of knowing much about ROTC, regardless of what he seemed to think. But, those are separable points. A few thoughts:


What do ROTC cadets their Summers? How about, airborne, air assualt, scuba, mountain, NOWAR, Camp Buckner, CTLT, etc.

A few guys from my BN spent last summer as OPFOR for the SF trainees at Robin Sage... don't forget that. ;) Still, to say that one ROTC unit will get all of the choices listed above... that's usually a pipe dream. In my experience it ends up being mostly Airborne slots, maybe an Air Assault slot or two, and one of the remainder (the cool ones). Of course, there are a bunch of CTLT slots available, and more/swapping can be had/done at NALC.


This guy is only perpetuating the sterotype, not helping it. For a sterotype to have evolved, there obviously had to be a number of officers who fit the mold.

Entirely true. But, just because there's a stereotype doesn't mean it applies to everyone. Just a thought.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Whoa, Sammy... starting to sound pretty jaded yourself!! What happenned to the impartial butter bar we all know and love?

Ah, I'm still impartial. I have still yet to say that I believe that this sterotype applies to all, or even many, West Pointers. If you thought I meant otherwise, I apologize.


although, yes, he decidedly did not have the benefit of knowing much about ROTC, regardless of what he seemed to think. But, those are separable points. A few thoughts:

And yes they are sparable points, I was commenting on his last two paragraphs, the rest was rather interesting. The author just made the mistake of voiding his credibility with a few less than tactful comments.


But, just because there's a stereotype doesn't mean it applies to everyone. Just a thought.

Never said it did, I was simply stating that myths and rumors don't appear out of thin air. Somewhere along the line, a USMA grad(s) demonstrated himself poorly. This of course, as I've stated before, applies to all commissioning sources. So until people get over their elitist attitudes and recognize that we all have something to bring to the table, the problems will continue.

[MoJo]

I'm curious...

You stated that you support the existence of a US Military Academy. But aside from the tradition and the history, what other reasons do you have to support it?

Because if it is for the history and tradition alone, we could easily turn USMA into a museum, and put a lot of badly needed funding into ROTC programs instead...

I for one think that USMA will make me a better officer than ROTC could, so in essence, I am saying the average USMA product is better than the average ROTC product, hence we need the academy as a sort of standards-bearer.

I would like to hear your opinion.

[Gambit]

So until people get over their elitist attitudes and recognize that we all have something to bring to the table, the problems will continue.

*chuckle*... there's nothing wrong with an elitist attitude... the problem shows up when you think you're better than everyone else because of it. :lol:

[Sammy Sandbag]

*chuckle*... there's nothing wrong with an elitist attitude... the problem shows up when you think you're better than everyone else because of it.

That was implied :wink:

[Gambit]

I for one think that USMA will make me a better officer than ROTC could, so in essence, I am saying the average USMA product is better than the average ROTC product, hence we need the academy as a sort of standards-bearer.

Wait... haven't we spent about 5 pages or so, and--more importantly--hundreds of kbytes of Sammy's DB space discussing this??? I'm confused.

To restate my earlier page-long point in brief, I think USMA has its place, and trains phenomenally equipped leaders. However, I also think that what a USMA cadet gains in skills/militance/etc., they often lose in "outside of the military experience". And while this imbalance often leads to high-speed soldiers, sometimes it also creates high-drag humans. Note... SOMETIMES. An NO, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here. It doesn't help that some USMA cadets think they're better than the world b/c of the extra military opportunities they had access to... an arrogant prick of any sort is about as appealing to me as tangling my static line & playing "catch the C-130" back to the airstrip.

At the end of the day, as has beeen previously stated, USMA and ROTC create different types of leaders, and both are needed. Both also create their fair share of stars and tools. So, instead of looking at each other as freaks because we have differences, why don't we focus on the similarities we have, and how we can share our differences with each other to broaden our respective horizons...

[cornbread]

amen.
lets end it here, in the end we all go into the army and work together, it doesnt matter where you came from but what you do when your in the real army. dont judge any comissioning source based on the actions of a few people. every source has good and bad things about it but what is important is that everyone can come together to get the job done. instead of trying to argue about the validity or effectiveness of a certain source we should be trying to learn from each other to make better leaders in the future.

[MoJo]

To restate my earlier page-long point in brief, I think USMA has its place, and trains phenomenally equipped leaders.

So are you saying that ROTC does not train "phenomenally equipped leaders," or at least not to the same extent as USMA?

However, I also think that what a USMA cadet gains in skills/militance/etc., they often lose in "outside of the military experience".

Is a lack of social experience detrimental to a good officer? If so, is it detrimental enough that it undoes any good in the USMA program?

At the end of the day, as has beeen previously stated, USMA and ROTC create different types of leaders, and both are needed.

But what has not ben previously stated, and what I want to know, is how are USMA and ROTC officers different types of leaders?

Furthermore, how does having different types of officers benefit the Army? Are there not only, "Good," and "Bad" officers?

I'm only pressing this point, because the reality is that USMA's annual budget exceeds all of Cadet Command's put together, and there's got to be more to it than, "different leaders."

[Sammy Sandbag]

I'm only pressing this point, because the reality is that USMA's annual budget exceeds all of Cadet Command's put together, and there's got to be more to it than, "different leaders."

No, not really.


amen.
lets end it here, in the end we all go into the army and work together, it doesnt matter where you came from but what you do when your in the real army.

I suggest we take Cornbread's advice.

[MoJo]

amen.
lets end it here, in the end we all go into the army and work together, it doesnt matter where you came from but what you do when your in the real army. dont judge any comissioning source based on the actions of a few people. every source has good and bad things about it but what is important is that everyone can come together to get the job done. instead of trying to argue about the validity or effectiveness of a certain source we should be trying to learn from each other to make better leaders in the future.

True.

I guess if I am destined to find out that USMA really doesn't make better officers, then that'll just make me a more grateful citizen for the excellent(and free) education/training.

[Gambit]

I'm only pressing this point, because the reality is that USMA's annual budget exceeds all of Cadet Command's put together, and there's got to be more to it than, "different leaders."

Thanks for adding that last part, because you were kinda starting to come off as an ass. ;)

Really, though, re-read the last few pages, as I've answered all of your questions before in much more eloquence that I can drum up right now. One thing I will address, though...


Furthermore, how does having different types of officers benefit the Army? Are there not only, "Good," and "Bad" officers?

I consider this statement completely flawed. That's like saying, "How does having commercial jets and fighter jets help the world? Aren't there only planes or boats?" OK, so that's not a perfect analogy.. but you get the idea. As I said before, you--as an ROTC cadet AND/OR as a USMA cadet--will NOT have the same experience with the Army as a commissioned offiecr than someone who goes through OCS will. That LT, having been a soldier, will be able to connect with their troops MUCH better than any other type of commissionee. By the same toekn, OCS commissionees usually have the most trouble with leadership, since for years they've been trained to think IN the box. It's almost like a role-playing game... Dwarves can fight like a beast, but they run really slow, and Wizards can cast spells but have little hand-to-hand defense, etc. etc. I don't really play that shit, but you know what I mean? It's not that one or the other is good or bad, it's that each has a particular set of strengths or weaknesses. No offense, but it sounds like one of your wekanesses is a need to put everything into a compartment. You may run a 4:21 mile, but that won't be worth shit when you're an IN LT with a 60 pound ruck trapped under Iraqi fire! Then, all the cash the Army's dropped on you will play out in your reaction to the situation, your use of available resources, and your ability to remain calm under fire and motivate your troops to stick their heads up through the hail of bullets and fire back.

That said, props to cornbread... I'm gonna shut up now (until the next post, right? ;)).

[FiveYearPlan]

In the spirit of things to put out on the floor. I liked when we had an ROTC cadet come for Camp Buckner. He was a baby. In fact he couldn't carry his own weight. So, should I then infer that all ROTC people suck. I would say no. By the way for all you guys that want to slam me...I did ROTC. In fact I was an MSIII. I have done my time and then some. Let us not have a pissing contest. I will win. The debate will continue with how important the $300,000 education we get here is worth, but in the end we have been here since 1802 and have no signs of demise any time soon. I will not even get into the whole my ROTC program v. WP. It would take too long. I can say this much... I'm sorry you couldn't get in here. Get over it. I am.



What a cool jewel you got from your school.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Wow, FiveYearPlan. Not sure what to say to you about that. I just hope that I never have to deal with you once you graduate.

[Gambit]

Pretty much... you're an ass.

[MoJo]

First off, let me state the obvious: It's a fact of cadet life that there's a pretty big culture gap between USMA and ROTC. This gap often leads to misunderstanding on both sides.

Now as we can see, this misunderstanding can often lead to verbal abuse from both sides.

But here's the bottom-line: If nobody starts any shit, there won't be any shit. IE, the person who created this thread in the first place is at fault here.

And so long as people continue to make an issue over how "jaded" USMA cadets are, or how "ateup" ROTC is, both sides will never truly be able to work together and cooperate fully. So I say the solution is for people to stop making generalizations altogether, or at least if you have such thoughts, keep them to yourself or don't state them in such a, "jaded," fashion.

[Gambit]

Word!

[Sammy Sandbag]

I think that's been agreed upon. There apears to be only 2 posters in this thread who keep actually making an issue of it. The original poster actually stated that he didn't think many USMA grads were "jaded", he just was asking a question. Worded poorly, maybe tactless, but still he wasn't making statements like: "Let us not have a pissing contest. I will win." or "I'm sorry you couldn't get in here. Get over it." or "On average, WPers are cocky, arrogant, a$$h0le$" or "I don't give a rats ass who you are or where you got your commission from. I hate everyone equally." or "You are ADA they force branch that at West Point. Your response is stupid."

When someone starts lambasting another cadet or officer because of their source of commission or branch, it crosses the line from making generalizations to casting insults. Making generalizations is by no means a good practice, but insulting a fellow service person is abhorrent behavior and totally unacceptable for an (future) officer.

[The Sharaffe]

Yeah, yeah call me whatever you want as long as it ends in "sir"

[Gambit]

Yeah, yeah call me whatever you want as long as it ends in "sir"

Sure thing, Jackass. Sir. :P

[The Sharaffe]

Wow, I really wish I could reach though the screen and beat your ass

[Gambit]

Wow, I really wish I could reach though the screen and beat your ass

You didn't take me seriously, did you??? :?

[The Sharaffe]

I AM borderline retarded

[Gambit]

no worries. we cant all be masters of the art of the spacebar all of the time.

Damn, Sammy got to the post before I could reply... oh, well, now it's an inside joke.

[airjun]

hey! wait a minute?!

[Sammy Sandbag]

Okay, apologies up front for resurrecting this thread. Found an interesting and related discussion on platoonleader.army.mil . It's interesting because it is basically the same discussion that has taken place here, but PL's moderators took it upon themselves to delete/edit/censor objectionable posts. Actually "objectionable" is too strong of a word, it was more along the lines of disagreeing. So some officer posted his humble opinions, and even stated that it was his view, and "CPT Albert LaBella" goes rampant with the black Sharpie and even does his best to pull rank. In doing so, he sparked a backlash from several posters. So much for free speech, we only defend it, we don't get to partake. Anyways, long live the open exchange of thoughts here at AIFA. Fight the Man, black power, free Tibet, etc.

Read it here: http://platoonleader.army.mil/viewtopic.php?topic=2441&forum=28

[The Sharaffe]

Someone took one more swipe at WP and they took the whole subject off...at least for now

[airjun]

Free Palestine!!

[The Sharaffe]

indeed